Capital Punishment: Isn't it time to stop state sponsored murder?

[starsapphire]

In Canada we banned the death penalty in 1986 following a moratorium in the 60's. Every other country in the West has done the same and we generally look at the US as an aberration. It certainly doesn't speak well of the US to us.

The one argument against it that I don't see raised is that it isn't what we do to the condemned when we execute them, it is what we do to ourselves. We become a people capable of and condoning cold blooded murder and this sends a message. In several studies in Europe for example the murder rate is actually seen to decline after the abolition of capital punishment. The death penalty then actually promotes and legitimates violence.

It does not matter how horrible the offence, when we cold-bloodedly kill another human being we do harm to ourselves and promote a very twisted value. I think the death penalty is only ever applied as revenge and not justice. Justice in my moral world at least, prohibits the deliberate taking of life, by individuals or the state. Fulfilling our need for revenge only adds fuel to the dark side of our nature.

[oscarlong]

Agreed Sapphire, the harm it does to the community goes way beyond the death of the individual who is executed. Have you ever seen the crowds outside those prisons when an execution is about to go down?! Now thats shocking

[watcher1]

Well stated, starsapphire.  WOO 

[joan1984]

"... I don't consider myself "liberal"..."   Of course not Toe, very few accept that they are not true conservatives these days, just consider themselves normal, and average folks.

Let me guess, and I may get a few wrong, as to your choices in elections:

1948    Harry S. Truman/Alben W. Barkley
1952   Adlai E. Stevenson/John J. Sparkman
1956   Adlai E. Stevenson/Estes Kefauver
1960   John F. Kennedy/Lyndon B. Johnson
1964   Lyndon B. Johnson/Hubert H. Humphrey
1968   Hubert H. Humphrey/Edmund S. Muskie
1972   George McGovern/Sargent Shriver
1976   Jimmy Carter/Walter F. Mondale
1980   Jimmy Carter/Walter F. Mondale
1984   Walter F. Mondale/Geraldine A. Ferraro
1988   Michael S. Dukakis/Lloyd Bentsen
1992   William J. Clinton/Albert A. Gore
1996   William J. Clinton/Albert A. Gore
2000   Albert A. Gore/Joseph I. Lieberman
2004   John F. Kerry/John Edwards
2008   Barak H. Obama/Joseph Biden

Now can you see why some may think you are a liberal?

[watcher1]

  Your party is the biggest bunch of rapists this planet has ever assembled under one banner Joan, and the only good Republican is a dead one.  

  From someone who professes to be against the death penalty?  Plus you paraphrased General, and Republican, Sheridan's infamous remark. 

[joan1984]

Wow, surprised me, Toe, and I see you have a personal experience that turned you off to Republicans. Sorry about your friend, and your bad experience then.

Also, glad you found Dan Quayle fully qualified for Vice President, and he won.
When folks note Governor Sarah Palin and her comments, I cannot help but think of Quayle, Ferraro, Gore, Agnew, and hosts of other VP candidate predecessors.

I am a registered Democrat, btw, and choose conservative policy proponents if and when available, with only a glancing regard as to party. Unfortunately very very seldom have I seen a conservative Democrat running for anything, or one who votes the positions on which we agree. Thanks for the response.

[joan1984]

"...God watcher, am I going to have to add you to the list?"

Looks around... there is a list? Checking it twice...

[watcher1]

"...God watcher, am I going to have to add you to the list?"

Looks around... there is a list? Checking it twice...

Watcher is on many lists, mainly shit lists. 

[joan1984]

  Your party is the biggest bunch of rapists this planet has ever assembled under one banner Joan, and the only good Republican is a dead one.  

Hey, Toe, a bit thin skinned are we. As I have heard about Obama, who has the same thin skin, if your skin was any thinner, you would come with a reservoir tip.
Troll!

[watcher1]

What really pissed me about the rape Joan, was that not only was the rapist not turned over to the authorities and ostracized for his behavior (the victim was an 18 year old intern at the time, who had been drugged)... the perp continues to enjoy a position of influence in the GOP, including a prominent role in the McCain/Palin campaign.  When I asked a friend inside the party if "the Maverick" was aware of it, he said that McCain was not only aware of it, but had investigated to determine if it could be a liability to him.  Disgusting.

I think there was a Kennedy or two in similar circumstances.  Both parties have their black sheep that they protect.

[RopeFiend]

You're right, it's revenge... I was merely trying to incite a riot. 

Do I think it's morally wrong to kill someone?  No, otherwise we immediately need to throw away all weapons, disband the armed forces and sit around holding hands and singing "Kumbaya".  Not happening in THIS century, that's for sure!  If you believe that we (the human species) have evolved far enough that murder is needless, then you should quickly check yourself into a rubber room, 'cos the drugs aren't helping you with your psychosis.

Am I for revenge?  Only if it's warranted.  I've seen it done WAY wrong before, and also meted out some justice on my own.  It'd be wonderful if the fucking cops and courts WORKED, but most of what I've seen regarding those two bumbling fools of justice makes me want to puke.

I'm a libertarian, most days.  That doesn't mean I need to fall over and pretend that a kiddy rapist is ever going to be safe on the streets.  I'm still all for offing the useless pond scum that have hideously violated the basic tenets of social behavior.

DO feel free to disagree! 

[starsapphire]

Frankly I don't hear an argument in what you are saying, simply a statement of your beliefs which I find abhorrent. None the less, you are entitled to your beliefs.  Unfortunately you seem to prove my case that harboring such beliefs does fuel the dark sides of our nature. I'm afraid you come across as a very unpleasant person.

You also are mistaken in your concept of justice. Justice involves having your case presented to the community authorized and most appropriate to the nature of your complaint, and accepting its judgment. You cannot measure out justice when acting soley on your own. This a complete contradiction to the word's meaning. The whole point of justice is to have a third party assess your case fairly, one that is totally impartial. It is impossible to be completely unbiased regarding our own behaviour. We are far to good at twisting things in our mind to suit our own beliefs and to  'justify' our own actions.

I agree with you that some killing is necessary, especially when done in self defense, as most wars claim to be. I refer to murder. And who are you to decide who is pond scum? Judge not lest you be judged!

With regard to pedophiles they have the lowest recidivism rates in the prison system. It might help you to do some research BEFORE you form your opinions. Ignorance does not become you.

Where did I say we have evolved far enough that murder is needless? I said it is unjust. We have evolved far enough to know at least that much.

As for our criminal justice systems, they are far from perfect, but they generally do the best they can. After all they are only a reflection of our community at large. Besides you seem to think that it is only the justice system that deals with crime. The  police and courts in fact are there to react to crimes and not prevent them. That is our job and only a small part of theirs. If the crime rate goes up that seldom is their fault, it is ours. Crime comes about generally from the way we treat each other and those stem from the values we as a society hold.  Crimes are not caused by a lack of police. As  I pointed out the rates of murder and other violent offences actually declined in countries abolishing the death penalty if you want an example.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to advance my case further.

[Cyounger]

In todays political climate , it's highly unlikely that the death penalty will be abolished.  Im rethinking my support of the death penaty mainly cause of the costs it takes to maintain the convicted on death rows across the nation.  Better to just sentence them to life without parole and let them rot in prison.  Let them rethink every day how they destroyed lives.

Or..... expedite the appeals process so they don't live on death row that long.

The problem with all prisons / prisoners are they are a separate society that have rights. Take those rights away and prisoners would think twice about committing crimes upon release. Hard time should be hard time. Probation and parole should be non-existent.

Another problem is rehabilitation (therapy or education programs) seldom works. One reason is once released (and having a prison record) most find it nearly impossible to succeed in society. There record is publicly known, asked on job applications and follows them for the rest of their life. Do you want a child molester, drug dealer, rapist, murderer, etc. teaching in a school, driving a school bus, working in a business you may own? of coarse not. At the same time, what does these felons do to find work and become a contributing part of society?

In the early 20th century, when a felon was released it was thought that they paid for there crime. People would give felons a second chance knowing that the likely hood of them committing another crime was unlikely. They did hard time and the last place they wanted to be was locked up again. Today thats not the case. They have not paid for there crimes and most felons could careless if they  go back to prison. They can't survive in free society as their opportunities are limited.

[mrlickhergood]

hell no! just my opinion, these people never cared about their victim's, so why should we care . lets start have fair and quick trails take them to the back and shoot them. game over.  no! anyone can kill someone  and get three meals and a bed. we support them or let them go due to some lawyers or judges mistakes, to kill again

[phtlc]

I have no real moral issue with the idea, I just have reservations due to the possibility of executing a wronfully convicted person.

[CardinalBlue]

A somewhat loaded question.
However, I favor execution, for more crimes than murder.
Crimes of extreme violence, extreme aggravated rape, assault, and so on may merit the death penalty.
Many countries have decided that judicial execution is too radical for a modern society. But is the incarceration for natural life or - even worse - the possibility of freedom more reasonable? There have been more murders committed by released murderers than have been executions of convicted murderers.
Consider the gangs, hostility, overcrowding, expense to the taxpayers, and uncontrollable contraband in the US prison system alone.
Society should be free from these violent offenders.

[MissBarbara]

Back to the original question -- "Isn't it time to stop state sponsored murder?" -- at least one person thinks it's time:


Pope urges end to death penalty worldwide

By David Kerr

Vatican City, Nov 30, 2011 / 12:56 pm (CNA/EWTN News).- Pope Benedict XVI encouraged countries around the world to end the death penalty as a legal sanction at today’s general audience.
 
Addressing a group of pilgrims gathered in Rome for an international conference on the controversial topic, the Pope said he hopes that their deliberations “will encourage the political and legislative initiatives being promoted in a growing number of countries to eliminate the death penalty.”

The conference was organized by the Italian-based Sant'Egidio Community under the theme of “No Justice without Life.” The Pope told them that he applauded “the substantive progress made in conforming penal law both to the human dignity of prisoners and the effective maintenance of public order.”

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says that the traditional teaching of the Church “does not exclude” recourse to the death penalty when it is “the only practicable way to defend the lives of human beings effectively against the aggressor.” It adds, however, that today such cases are “very rare, if not practically non-existent.”

Recent figures suggest that around a third of the world’s countries use the death penalty as part of their legal code. In the United States, there are currently 34 states where the death penalty is legal.

[Bexy]

Pope urges end to death penalty worldwide

Ya'd almost think there will be some scandal coming out pretty soon involving the pope and warranting the death sentence. Is the pope covering his ass after him having covered the asses of all his pedo bishops and cardinals?

[MissBarbara]

Pope urges end to death penalty worldwide

Ya'd almost think there will be some scandal coming out pretty soon involving the pope and warranting the death sentence. Is the pope covering his ass after him having covered the asses of all his pedo bishops and cardinals?

Nope. This is something the current Pope, along with his predecessor, have been saying for over 30 years.

[watcher1]

Funny how some people will raise a hue and cry about abortion but will have no qualms with a death penalty.  Just saying.