Capital Punishment: Isn't it time to stop state sponsored murder?

[Grm]

Isn't it time to reconsider the death penalty? Having just read the article below, it seems that executions are going to be more difficult to carry out using the so called humane methods. Only China executes more of its citizens than the USA, in most other western democracies the death penalty has been abolished. Does it actually deter murders? I haven't bothered to look but my guess would be no, I'll bet there just as many killings in Texas, even though it puts to death more people than any other state in the US. I know popular opinion would always say, keep the death penalty, but wouldn't society be a more civilised place without state sponsored murder?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/23/lethal-injection-sodium-thiopental-hospira

US states are facing a new obstacle to enforcing the death penalty after the sole American manufacturer of a drug used in lethal injections announced it was ending production.

Some states have already been forced to seek alternative supplies of sodium thiopental abroad, including illicitly from British companies, in order to carry out executions because of a shortage of the anaesthetic after production was stalled by the lack of a key ingredient.

Now the US manufacturer, Hospira, says that it will stop production entirely after a bid to start making sodium thiopental in Italy stalled when the Rome government said it would only license manufacture if the drug was not used in executions.

Hospira said it intended to manufacture sodium thiopental to serve hospitals but "could not prevent the drug from being diverted to departments of corrections for use in capital punishment procedures".

"We cannot take the risk that we will be held liable by the Italian authorities if the product is diverted for use in capital punishment," the company said.

Sodium thiopental is an anaesthetic generally used before the administration of two other drugs that halt breathing and stop the heart. However, two states use sodium thiopental alone as it can kill on its own if used in high dosage.

All but one of the 35 US states that carry out executions use the drug in lethal injections. The shortage has delayed executions in California and Oklahoma and forced other states to scramble to find alternatives.

Hospira's decision will leave some states with no means to execute condemned prisoners, at least for some time, while they go through the extended legal processes of drawing up new protocols for lethal injections.

Last year, California and Arizona illicitly obtained supplies of the drug, manufactured in Austria, from a UK wholesaler, Dream Pharma, which had obtained it from the British licence holder, Archimedes Pharma UK. Arizona used the drug in the execution of a man in October. After an outcry, the British government imposed export controls on the drug in November to prevent its use in executions.

Earlier this month, it was revealed that Dream Pharma had exported to Arizona all three drugs used in lethal injections, which was legal at the time.

The supply of sodium thiopental held by Texas, which carries out more lethal injections than all the other US states combined, will expire in March weeks before two scheduled executions.

California was forced to call off the execution of a man in September. It tried to obtain the drug from at least six other states and from Pakistan before securing a supply from a British importer that is sufficient for about 100 executions.

The governor of Missouri last week spared a man who had been scheduled to die on Wednesday amid speculation about its supply of drugs for lethal injection.

Tennessee obtained a supply for an execution in October but it is unclear whether it will be able to carry out others.

Oklahoma has started using pentobarbital, a drug used in doctor-assisted suicides in Oregon and by the Swiss euthanasia group, Dignitas.

[watcher1]

US company stops making key death penalty drug

States with trouble finding execution drug COLUMBUS, Ohio -- The sole U.S. manufacturer of a key lethal injection drug said Friday it is ending production because of death-penalty opposition overseas - a move that could delay executions across the United States.

Over the past several months, a growing shortage of the drug, sodium thiopental, has forced some states to put executions on hold. And the problem is likely to get worse with the announcement from Hospira Inc. of Lake Forest, Ill.

Hospira said it decided in recent months to switch manufacturing from its North Carolina plant to a more modern Hospira factory in Liscate, Italy. But Italian authorities demanded a guarantee the drug would not be used to put inmates to death - an assurance the company said it was not willing to give.

"We cannot take the risk that we will be held liable by the Italian authorities if the product is diverted for use in capital punishment," Hospira spokesman Dan Rosenberg said. "Exposing our employees or facilities to liability is not a risk we are prepared to take."

Italian Health Ministry officials were not immediately available for comment.

All but one of the 35 states that employ lethal injection use sodium thiopental. In nearly every case, they use it as part of a three-drug combination that sedates and paralyzes the inmate and stops the heart.

There are other, similar sedatives on the market, but substituting one drug for another would require new laws or lengthy administrative processes in some states, and could also lead to lawsuits from death row.

Similarly, switching to another manufacturer could invite lawsuits from inmates demanding proof that the drug will not cause pain in violation of their constitutional protection against cruel and unusual punishment. Hospira is the only sodium thiopental-maker approved by the Food and Drug Administration.

Because of what Hospira described as problems with its raw-material suppliers, sodium thiopental is already scarce in the U.S., and any batches Hospira made before it suspended manufacturing more than a year ago are set to expire this year.

In Texas, the nation's busiest death penalty state, the Department of Criminal Justice said Friday it is exploring the use of another anesthetic. The state has four executions scheduled between now and July but has enough sodium thiopental to carry out only two February executions, spokesman Jason Clark said.

Ohio has enough to carry out a Feb. 17 execution but will not comment on its supply after that, or on Hospira's announcement, said Ohio prisons spokeswoman JoEllen Smith.

Hospira has long deplored the drug's use in executions but said it regretted having to stop production, because sodium thiopental has legitimate medical purposes as an anesthetic used in hospitals. Hospira continues to make two other drugs used in executions - pancuronium bromide, which paralyzes, and potassium chloride, which stops the heart.

Without providing details, Rosenberg said the company's state-of-the-art Italian factory was the only plant capable of manufacturing sodium thiopental.

Like most other European countries, however, Italy does not have capital punishment and opposes the death penalty. Italy's Radical Party brought a motion to Parliament, which passed overwhelmingly on Dec. 22, requiring Hospira to ensure that the drug would be used only for medical purposes and would not find its way into prisons.

The current shortage of the drug in the U.S. has delayed or disrupted executions in Arizona, California, Kentucky, Ohio and Oklahoma.

In the fall, states including Arizona, Arkansas, California and Tennessee turned to sodium thiopental made in Britain. That supply dried up after the British government in November banned its export for use in executions.

But California, which placed an order for 521 grams of the drug before the ban, filed a notice in federal court Friday that the order had been received. The state's lethal injection protocol calls for preparation of 3 grams of the drug for execution, along with 3 grams on a backup tray. Prisons spokeswoman Terry Thornton said portions of the drug are also used for training.

Oklahoma has gone a different route, switching to pentobarbital, an anesthetic commonly used to put cats and dogs to sleep. The state has conducted two executions with that drug.

[stefanwolf]

In todays political climate , it's highly unlikely that the death penalty will be abolished.  Im rethinking my support of the death penaty mainly cause of the costs it takes to maintain the convicted on death rows across the nation.  Better to just sentence them to life without parole and let them rot in prison.  Let them rethink every day how they destroyed lives.

[Donnie]

It would work if they didn't spend so much time waiting on it and the court of  appeals. 
If they are sentenced to death then fucking kill 'em and be done.

[Bexy]

I've always been opposed to the death penalty because of the possible risk of sentencing an innocent person to death, but also because I'm very fond of the idea of pedophiles being beaten up by the other inmates for the rest of their lives...

[GaryMN_2008]

I bet the innocent people sentenced to prison for pedophilia love that ongoing punishment.

After all, is it ONLY in death sentence cases where errors are made?

We know many resources are used to free death sentence convicts, while many sentenced to years in prison do not have that resource, simply because they are ONLY in prison.

Luckily here in the United States we have a provision for punishment spelled out in our Constitution:

Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Also, you can only be sentenced to death in the US for a murder conviction.

[Bexy]

I bet the innocent people sentenced to prison for pedophilia love that ongoing punishment.

After all, is it ONLY in death sentence cases where errors are made?

We know many resources are used to free death sentence convicts, while many sentenced to years in prison do not have that resource, simply because they are ONLY in prison.

Luckily here in the United States we have a provision for punishment spelled out in our Constitution:

Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Also, you can only be sentenced to death in the US for a murder conviction.

That is why they are put in a separate facility in my country, as they should be. Are they not in the US?
I am however totally opposed to releasing them on parole after having watched a documentary interviewing 4 pedophiles on parole and under heavy medication testifying "they just could not suppress the urge" even under medication and psychiatric treatment. I am all for second chances but not for the ones that testify "they did not trust themselves around kids".

[GaryMN_2008]

Bexy:

No.
They are not segregated.
Seemingly many agree with the idea they should be allowed to be beaten as further punishment.

And you are certainly correct on the second chance.

Too bad in America we often have convicted murderers released and find out they have killed again.

[Grm]

Watcher your post is a repeat of my opening.

[Lois]

I would love to see the death penalty abolished, just as I would love to see everyone set aside their guns, but I fear it will never happen.

I beleive that Americans know the dangers of guns.  Deep down they know the freedom of gun ownership comes with collateral damage.   (Although I wonder how many have consciously decided to accept this collateral damage as inherent in embracing the freedom of owning guns?)

It is similar to the situation with the death penalty.  Many Americans support it.  But inherit with the death penalty is the collateral damage that sometimes innocent folks get convicted and are "put to death".  They accept that innocents will die, but they also believe that it is a necessary deterrent (so they accept the collateral damage).  Of course they are wrong, the death penalty is not a deterrent and this can be shown by facts, but they honestly don't care about facts. 

It is a sad situation all around.

[joan1984]

Donnie has it right. Get it done with swiftly and openly, so it can indeed be a deterrent as well as punishment. Get the lawyers away from any money from any government source, so it wont cost so much to give a legitimate challenge, then carry out the sentence.  Done in weeks or months, rather than decades. Firing squad would be terrific, to make the point something criminals can relate to.

[RopeFiend]

Sorry, not a lot of sympathy for murderers and child rapists here...  shoot 'em!

Here in TEXASS we even have an "express lane" if the situation warrants it.  Commit a capital crime with multiple witnesses, and YOU GO RIGHT TO THE CHAIR.  No appeal, no years spent tying up the courts with bullshit, you're DEAD.

It's the "quick check-out" option for when you REALLY fuck up.


If you've violated the basic rules of society SO BADLY that you can't safely be returned TO society, then I don't see a lot of need to keep a rabid dog around.  I'm all for the death penalty, as long as there's sufficient proof (and not some of the shoddy work I've seen the DAs run though.)  I strongly disagree with it unless there's undeniable proof that you've committed the crime, but once it's a certainty, then HELLS YEAH, FRY THE BASTARD!  

[Bexy]

Sorry, not a lot of sympathy for murderers and child rapists here...  shoot 'em!

Here in TEXASS we even have an "express lane" if the situation warrants it.  Commit a capital crime with multiple witnesses, and YOU GO RIGHT TO THE CHAIR.  No appeal, no years spent tying up the courts with bullshit, you're DEAD.

It's the "quick check-out" option for when you REALLY fuck up.


If you've violated the basic rules of society SO BADLY that you can't safely be returned TO society, then I don't see a lot of need to keep a rabid dog around.  I'm all for the death penalty, as long as there's sufficient proof (and not some of the shoddy work I've seen the DAs run though.)  I strongly disagree with it unless there's undeniable proof that you've committed the crime, but once it's a certainty, then HELLS YEAH, FRY THE BASTARD!  

Aah, sorry Rope, but for 100% proven pedophiles, I'm voting for the 'slow and painful check-out' option.
Hm, let's see, what would be nice for the sicko called Dutroux in my country, who abducted, raped and murdered several girls, letting two 8-year old girls starve to death in his soundproof cellar, while he was in custody on other charges. And now that sick fuck dares to complain about the food they are serving him in his solitary jail cell, where they had to put him because otherwise the non-pedo inmates would have long beaten him to death.

I was thinking about castration for starters. Not just the balls, no, the whole package...hm, what else? I'm a nice person so, not really good at coming up with torture methods.  Anybody got any good ideas? Nothing humane please, this is room 1408 after all and Grm has declared it 'hug free', so let's have a good go at it. 

[stefanwolf]

castration for pedophiles and rapists would be good

[RopeFiend]

Toe, you have it DEAD WRONG.

The death penalty isn't so much about DETERRENT, it's about COST CONTAINMENT.

Why the hell should we all pay to keep someone in prison for 60 years when they've violated the basic tenets of society so far that many of us want to see 'em as worm food?

Once you're in prison for life, there's unlimited opportunity to waste even more of the taxpayer's money by going for retrials and such.  It clogs up the court system, and particularly in cases where there's undeniable proof of guilt.  Those cases should get a NO APPEAL stamp on them.

I understand and realize that a LOT of the capital crimes have sloppy evidence that the cops and the DAs sleaze through, including forced 'confessions'.  Leave those open for appeal, but the solid cases should end... PERMANENTLY.

Bexy, the only society on the planet that allows the 'eye for an eye' punishment are the theocratic Muslim regimes in the Middle East.  Sorry, but there's just NO way that I want to be associated in any form with their flavor of 'justice'.  I've seen too many berserk things come out of those countries.

[Lois]

So what is irrefutable proof?  The Innocence Project proves that we've gotten it wrong, A LOT!

http://www.innocenceproject.org/understand/Eyewitness-Misidentification.php

[watcher1]

A lot good a posthumous pardon will do. 

[Bexy]

Bexy, the only society on the planet that allows the 'eye for an eye' punishment are the theocratic Muslim regimes in the Middle East.  Sorry, but there's just NO way that I want to be associated in any form with their flavor of 'justice'.  I've seen too many berserk things come out of those countries.

Rope, you KNOW I was joking...
*Quickly scoots out of room 1408, cause joking, kissing and hugging has been abolished here*

[joan1984]

  Maybe transfer of all murderers to Iraq, Abu Garab Prison perhaps, since that now meets all accepted international standards, and let them enjoy the thanks of our latest democracy. Suspend the death sentence, or just let the Iraqi's decide.
  Not Iraq you say.... well, Afghanistan has some fine prisons these days, and seeks to help the US all the time, yes?
  OK, maybe Guantanamo then, but that would be torture. Eliminate the appeals, finish the job in a short time, and close their files. That solves the cost issue, and the danger of them being turned out into society again, all with 90 to 120 days. Leave it to the state governor to pardon and release, or put them on the boat.

[RopeFiend]

This whole argument condenses down to:

  liberal: oh, god, stop the senseless murder!

  conservative: kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out!

That's a generalization of course, but it follows reasonably well.  I'm firmly of the belief that if you're unsafe to be out among people (child rapist, psychotic murderer, etc) then you ought to be DEAD.  I don't make any apology for that stance.  If you're a rabid dog, I wouldn't feel bad about shooting you myself.

Although I don't condone vigilante justice, I've *done* it before when legal recourse couldn't solve the problem.  Cops and the courts just can't stop someone before they kill you or make your life a living hell.

And as I've said TWICE, yes, I don't think anyone should be on Death Row because of EXPERT WITNESS testimony.  If someone didn't SEE you do it and there's no undeniable evidence that you are responsible for it, then it degrades to life imprisonment with the possibility of retrial.  Anything else is pure lunacy.  We shouldn't be putting anyone on Death Row without a damned solid reason.


I also don't believe we should PROTECT THE CHILDREN.  I'm not a fucking baby-sitter, nor should you WANT me to baby-sit your children.  That's your damned job, so stop asking random Perverts to sit your kids.  If you plunk 'em down in front of the Internets unattended, they're gonna find hard-core PRON.  Tough shit, buy cable with the Cartoon Network and stop using the Internet to distract the little bastards.