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BLM Demonstrations, Riots, Police Brutality, Justice for George Floyd

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Offline MissBarbara

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MissB,

Nowhere in the article about Camden did it mention a police union. In almost all northern large cities, there are very strong police unions. Many of them have been resistant to change unless ordered by the Feds. Even then, change is very slow. I am pretty sure if, say, Chicago fired their entire police force of over 13,000 there would be chaos and the union would be in the courts and policing would be greatly diminished.


Just because one article didn't mention police unions, doesn't mean that those officers were not members of a police union.

The local union was involved in the process the entire time. The rank and file agreed to the breakup plans and to the reorganization plans, and a new union was established for the reconstituted force.

It's also worth bearing in mind that the whole undertaking was carefully planned from start to finish. "Fire" is probably the wrong word. The mayor didn't wake up one morning, fire everyone, and then think, "Okay, now what am I going to do?" They did things intelligently, and they did things correctly. And that's a model for the nation.

Thinking, "This won't work, the unions will never allow it," is both backward and strongly counter-productive. It's like saying, "We need change!" and then giving before even beginning.

Besides, it's the task of police unions -- and every union -- to protect their members. That's the whole reason they exist. Yes, there can be abuses, and no union is perfect, but the point is mutual cooperation and working together. Doing things intelligently and reasonably. Creating plans that best serve both the officers and the citizens they protect and serve.

If you truly want change, then Camden serves as a great model for change. As I noted it's easier to do things in a city of 75,000 people than a city of 7.5 million people. And yes, there will be enormous challenges to reforming systems that are, in some case, more than a century old. But again, it you really want change, there you go.







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Offline msslave

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Right now many of the proposals been floated are knee jerk reactions to an "uprising" no one foresaw.

It's typical of many politicians who want media attention. Something happens and right away somebody is before the cameras with a new "fix it" law.

Here's hoping as things settle, more reasonable minds will prevail. Change needs to happen, but to fall back on an old saw:
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

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Offline watcher1

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Besides, it's the task of police unions -- and every union -- to protect their members. That's the whole reason they exist. Yes, there can be abuses, and no union is perfect, but the point is mutual cooperation and working together. Doing things intelligently and reasonably. Creating plans that best serve both the officers and the citizens they protect and serve.


I agree. Glad Camden was able to accomplish the change. It shows leadership on all fronts.

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Offline MissBarbara

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Right now many of the proposals been floated are knee jerk reactions to an "uprising" no one foresaw.

It's typical of many politicians who want media attention. Something happens and right away somebody is before the cameras with a new "fix it" law.

Here's hoping as things settle, more reasonable minds will prevail. Change needs to happen, but to fall back on an old saw:

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.


You're right. Some of the things my mayor has been saying offer even more proof that he's completely gone off the deep end. And he's far from alone.

But the basic concept is still valid: It's been conclusively proven that little changes will not solve the problem. And, most to the point, the killing of George Floyd is only the latest (in fact, with the passage of only 10 days, it's not longer the latest!) incident of this type. They have happened, they are continuing to happen, and they will happen again in the future, likely even the near future. 

In that light, the recent waves of protests -- and the protests, not the riots -- are beginning to accomplish their goals. They have engendered conversations, they are forcing politicians to formulate plans and float ideas, and they have changed hearts and minds. Of course, doing something like Camden in a city like New York, Chicago, or LA is an almost impossibly massive undertaking. And de Blasio's plan to immediately reduce funding for the NYPD and direct the funds elsewhere is massively stupid, and incredibly dangerous. That's the type of band-aid fix that has already been tried, and failed, far too many times.

So yes, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. But the bathwater must be thrown out, and it will temporarily inconvenience the baby. But it's worth it.




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Offline joan1984

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Camden, New Jersey, while likely in better shape for it's residents today than before the changes made in 2012/2013, remains a very dangerous place for all and not a location anyone is advised to "wander" into unaware.

Even many/most criminals have left Camden, those who could find means to get out of there as a residence, and a visit there about a year ago for me, was an enlightening experience. I drove there to attend a "surprise" Birthday Party for a relative, held at the Camden Aquarium (exact name may be different), and all there had a great time, by the way, the Aquarium being a success of sorts for Camden, as a city.

However, the drive through the maze of Exits and Ramps, to this City which is
partially under the Benjamin Franklin Bridge (into Philadelphia), allowed a view I have since seen described as a "Moonscape" of missing former row homes, with one, or a row of three, or 5 maybe, still occupied sporadically scattered in the rubble.

Camden had a response time of One Hour, to Emergency Police Calls, I read online, at the time it's Police Force was dissolved, and a relatively 'new' County Police Force took over Camden City, as well as Camden County for Policing services. Officers were (mostly) allowed to apply to Camden County Police for hire, and (mostly) hired, many to work the same "beat" as they had prior.

The Union was displaced, as regards Policing in the city of Camden, NJ, in the process of the changes being made. While generally the 'stats' for crimes in Camden City are better today than they once were, those same stats show the area as leading all other New Jersey State locations for crimes, and the Murder rate stats remain nearly unchanged today, in comparison to the State of NJ, as they were at the time of the changes, say 2013/2014.

Rental Car agents would advise customers NOT to abandon a car with a flat tire in Camden, but rather to drive it on the rims to a different location to seek any service needed, such was the Car Theft reputation of Camden, NJ back then, and it remains a leader in Car Theft for New Jersey today.

Change take time...



Besides, it's the task of police unions -- and every union -- to protect their members. That's the whole reason they exist. Yes, there can be abuses, and no union is perfect, but the point is mutual cooperation and working together. Doing things intelligently and reasonably. Creating plans that best serve both the officers and the citizens they protect and serve.


I agree. Glad Camden was able to accomplish the change. It shows leadership on all fronts.

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but they bring a smile to your face as they fall down stairs.


Offline MissBarbara

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Camden, New Jersey, while likely in better shape for it's residents today than before the changes made in 2012/2013, remains a very dangerous place for all and not a location anyone is advised to "wander" into unaware.

. . .


The population of Camden was 74,982 in 2012, and it's 73,811 today. That's a net loss of about 0.1%. So much for the mass exodus from the city.

Camden's demographics are, roughly, 49% Hispanic, 41% Black, and only 6% White. That, of course, explains the tenor of your observations about the city.

https://datausa.io/profile/geo/camden-nj/





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Offline joan1984

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Actually, the exodus took place when the jobs left, sent to overseas locations and the city devolved into chaos, as one may have defined chaos in that time.

There seems to have been some new construction in Camden, and Camden remains a high crime City in the State of NJ, as one can see if seeking crime
stats on the city and the State.

State Police swarmed Camden, NJ, when the process of disbanding the local city police was in effect, and still remain in patrol in Camden today, but they were the 'bridge' that allowed Law and Order to prevail in Camden, as Camden County took over Police Services in that city.

Moonscape was the word I found when I Googled: Camden, NJ, and it is apt. from my view there just one year ago. Perhaps there has been profound change since my visit?



Camden, New Jersey, while likely in better shape for it's residents today than before the changes made in 2012/2013, remains a very dangerous place for all and not a location anyone is advised to "wander" into unaware.

. . .


The population of Camden was 74,982 in 2012, and it's 73,811 today. That's a net loss of about 0.1%. So much for the mass exodus from the city.

Camden's demographics are, roughly, 49% Hispanic, 41% Black, and only 6% White. That, of course, explains the tenor of your observations about the city.

https://datausa.io/profile/geo/camden-nj/





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Offline watcher1

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The Minneapolis police and fire departments comprise 15% of the city's budget. Police get 179 million dollars fire 66 million.

The Chicago Police Dept alone accounts for 40% of the budget expense, something on the order of $5 million per day is spent on the CPD.  And I doubt that includes the multi-million dollars a year awarded to people for police misconduct.

The idea now garnering momentum is to license each police officer in the state, like they do for barbers, hair stylists, etc. Every year or so an agency will look at each licensee and determine whether to renew their license. Don't know how this will play out but it is different.

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Offline Lois

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Urban blight is common throughout much of the East Coast, or at least it seemed so when I visited.  In Washington DC I saw many boarded up buildings and people living in buildings that looked ready to collapse.  It honestly shocked me.



Offline msslave

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Offline Jed_

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Urban blight is common throughout much of the East Coast, or at least it seemed so when I visited.  In Washington DC I saw many boarded up buildings and people living in buildings that looked ready to collapse.  It honestly shocked me.


My home town looks a bit like that except the boarded up buildings are empty.  If you did a little research into why, you’d find the population peaked around 1900 and has been going down ever since.  This was largely due to many businesses either slowly dying or moving out of the area and people leaving for better opportunities.  That said, my home town has also made the list of best places to live in the U.S.  it’s very picturesque with lots of history and very affordable.



Offline Lois

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I hear folks are urging Congress to ban chokeholds.  Simply stated, chokeholds must be banned if any Police department or agency does not ban the chokehold.

I was talking to a Marine friend of mine.  They no longer have Marine recruits practice chokeholds on each other after several deaths occured.  There is simply no such thing as a "safe" choke hold.

This is a no brainer.  I hope Mitch McConnel sees the light.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2020, 04:42:16 PM by Lois »



Offline MissBarbara

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It’s been clear to me the police unions are a big part of the problem in getting rid of the ‘bad apple’ officers.


Here's an interesting take on that aspect of this issue:

Nancy Pelosi Says Police Unions Want to Be Part of the Conversation About Police Reform

https://time.com/5850286/nancy-pelosi-police-reform-time100-talks/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=the-brief-pm&utm_content=20200611&xid=newsletter-brief&et_rid=29626795






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Offline MissBarbara

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This week the English professional soccer league resumed play. All 20 Premier League teams played over the past few days, and jin all 10 matches, on the back of their jerseys, where their names would usually appear, it simply read "Black Lives Matter."

Just before kickoff in every match, the players gathered near the center circle, knelt down on one knee, and observed a moment of silence in support of the movement.

That's how you do it.






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Offline watcher1

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It is, but many Black footballers still say they are constantly taunted with racial epithets by rowdy fans.

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Offline joan1984

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Reply #195 on: June 23, 2020, 11:53:03 PM
  Seems the tied garage door rope had been in the garage for a long time, had absolutely nothing to do with a black NASCAR driver and crew being assigned to
that garage, and no crime was found by the FBI.

  Just for anyone watching this topic... just more hoax headlines from the lying mainstream media for the past several days... good enough to have all the NASCAR drivers give support to the driver who's team supposedly was threatened.

  Move along, nothing to see, again and AGAIN...

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Reply #196 on: June 24, 2020, 12:10:04 AM
Your tax dollars hard at work.

FBI announces noose found in Bubba Wallace's garage had been there since 2019; no federal crime committed

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nascar/2020/06/23/nascar-fbi-details-noose-bubba-wallace-garage-talladega/3245722001/



Offline joan1984

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Reply #197 on: June 24, 2020, 12:47:22 AM
  More FBI agents assigned to this case, than were assigned to Hillary's Emails.

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Offline Jed_

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Reply #198 on: June 24, 2020, 02:09:31 AM
More FBI agents assigned to this case, than were assigned to Hillary's Emails.


Reliable and fact checked citation please, because I find that highly improbable by a factor of 10 if not 100 fold.

Although the outcome was the same, no harm done.



Offline joan1984

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Reply #199 on: June 25, 2020, 03:11:58 AM
Ann Coulter: Great Moments in Racism
— the Dash Cam Tapes

ANN COULTER24 Jun 2020323

If you were watching MSNBC last Sunday, you may have seen Imani Perry, professor of African-American studies at Princeton University, and wondered, as I did, Why do I know that name?

Professor Perry’s delightfully original point was that we need to “think in serious contemplative ways about the depth of American inequality.”

So perhaps we know her from her incisive commentary! I certainly haven’t heard anyone talk about American inequality. It really made me think.

But then I suddenly realized it’s that Imani Perry! The one who nearly destroyed a policeman’s life by falsely accusing him of racism!

Back in February 2016, Perry launched a series of tweets, alleging the following:

— She was “arrested in Princeton Township for a single parking ticket three years ago.”

— She was cuffed — FOR A PARKING TICKET — and not allowed to make a phone call “so that someone would know where I was.”

— “I was afraid,” she wrote. “Many women who look like me have a much more frightening end to such arrests.”

Oh my gosh, she could have been killed!

— She was “working to move from being shaken to renewing my commitment to the struggle against racism & carcerality.”

Naturally, her story became instant international news. The president of Princeton leapt to her defense, firing off a letter to the chief of police, demanding an investigation. (I know Perry is a professor, but you’d think that, by now, more people would say, Let’s wait for the facts.)

Perry attributed the universal acceptance of her story to her “small build” and her association with “elite universities” such as Princeton

Just a thought, but it might also be because she’s black.

The Princeton police spent several days investigating before finally releasing the dashcam footage. I’m hoping they dragged it out to allow public outrage to reach maximum velocity.

Perry wasn’t arrested “for a single parking ticket three years ago.” After being stopped for going 67 mph in a 45 mph speed zone, officers ran her name and discovered her license had been suspended. She was arrested for driving with a suspended license.

The officer was almost comically polite to the professor. He gently explained to Perry that because of her suspended license, “What you’re going to have to do is come with us, it’s $130, so if you have that money we’ll be able to post and we’ll be able to get you right back out.” He offered to drop her at the university, saying, “You really shouldn’t be driving because of your suspended license.”

He informed her that police are required to cuff anyone being transported to the station and assured her that no one would have to know. As for not being allowed to make a phone call, he clearly told her that once they got to the station, “You can make as many phone calls and texts as you want.”

A policeman was kind to her, so Perry turned around and accused him of racism, secure in the knowledge that no one would dare challenge whatever she said.

It would have been firing offense for him, but not for her. She is still gainfully employed as a Princeton professor — and a sought-after guest on MSNBC and NPR! (It must be because of her “small build.”)

There are dozens of these cases. Tweet me your favorites!

Here’s another, from one of our blessed immigrants, Minati Roychoudhuri, professor at Capital Community College in Connecticut. (Really! That’s not one of my proposed new names for Yale, currently named for a slave trader.)

In 2015, Roychoudhuri (B.A., M.A., Utkal University, India) wrote a letter to the commissioner of public safety, as well as “the Senator and Legislator of my constituency” (she teaches English), claiming a policeman had racially profiled her.

Her letter said: “The officer did not give me any reason as to why had stopped me. His asking if I could speak English shows that he had racially profiled me and was not able to give me a concrete reason for stopping me. Further, the officer had checked ‘Hispanic’ in the race category in the infraction ticket.”

The professor also noted that, “I teach about diversity and the negative impact of racial profiling, I have now become a target of the same insidious behavior! It is easy to connect the dots with the nationwide racial profiling which has led to serious consequences.”

(It’s such a boon to have immigrants teaching about the horrors of “racial profiling” in America because we can’t get anyone to do that!)

Then police released the dashcam footage.

Below are relevant portions from the transcript. I didn’t include the part where the officer asked Roychoudhuri if she spoke English because he never did that. It was a bald-faced lie.

Officer: Hi ma’am, do you know why I’m stopping you today?

Roychoudhuri: No.

Officer: OK. There’s that big gore area with white lines painted across it and you cut in front of it, in front of me, thinking it’s a lane or something. You have to wait until it’s a dotted white line. License and registration.


Officer: Ma’am. So I wrote you the infraction for that improper lane change that you did.

Roychoudhuri: Please, you know, I probably crossed over there, and that’s why I did it. … Obviously I did that. … My (record) is absolutely clean.

Officer: OK. So I wrote you an infraction for that improper lane change that you did.

Roychoudhuri: OK.

Officer: The answer date is on the front of it and the instructions are on the back of it.

Roychoudhuri: Wait, what?

Officer: It’s a mail-in infraction. All you have to do is mail in, either a check or money order, and mail it in.

Roychoudhuri: OK.

Officer: All right.

Roychoudhuri: Thank you.

Guess who’s still teaching at Capital Community College and paid by Connecticut taxpayers? Our sacramental immigrant!

(NOTE TO MSNBC: Roychoudhuri would make another excellent guest to discuss racism in America.)

After the 2014 killing of Mike Brown in Ferguson, Missouri — a justified killing according to everyone, including Obama’s Department of Justice — the big demand was that police be required to wear bodycams.

OOPS!

That was a miscalculation. Turns out body cameras are the best thing that ever happened to cops. Which reminds me: The public has still not seen the bodycam footage from the officers arresting George Floyd, explaining how he ended up on the ground.

Maybe we should wait for the facts.


Some people are like the 'slinky'. Not really good for much,
but they bring a smile to your face as they fall down stairs.