KRISTEN'S BOARD
KB - a better class of pervert

News:

Coronavirus, The plague has arrived

Jed_ · 59093

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline MissBarbara

  • Burnt at the stake
  • *******
    • Posts: 16,182
    • Woos/Boos: +3189/-41
    • Gender: Female
Reply #1360 on: August 04, 2021, 03:10:08 PM

I think that the enforcement of COVID policies can walk a dangerous line, and that isn't saying that I don't agree with some of those policies.  I think the question becomes how do we enforce COVID safety policies while:
  • Complying with HIPPA and not leaking/sharing personal medical data.
  • Not inadvertently creating a "second class" of people based on vaccination status.
  • Even if using a HIPPA-enforced method, ensuring that the database(s) involved will not be compromised.

I do comply with any applicable local regulations regarding COVID and I am vaccinated, but I will say that I am kind of sick of the whole thing.  Every other day there is a conflicting study about how long the vaccines are effective, mixing and matching vaccines, boosters, and all sorts of other things.  I get it is an evolving situation, but I have a hard time making an intelligent decision when the information isn't only politicized but is provided by news media companies who couldn't freely criticize the pharmaceutical industry if they wanted to.  (Name me one news station that doesn't get ad revenue from drug companies)

My non-conspiracy point on the whole thing is this.  I will do what is necessary to protect myself and others according to local regulations.  I believe we DO need to have policies in place to protect additional spread.  However, I do not, in any way believe the "science is in" on any of this stuff because not a single news outlet, testing methodology, or medical official can give a straight answer on any of it.


That University of Indiana cases I cited about addresses most of your points.

As that court determined, this policy in no way violates HIPPA because no one is being forced to release medical data. Not only do make make choices to enter places where these restrictions are in place, but all they are required to do is show a piece of paper, or in most people's cases, a picture of a piece of paper on their phones. That's it.

The federal court in the IU case addressed the second class/special class distinction. They found that people who are non-vaccinated by choice are not second-class citizens because they have self-separated and self-marginalized. Again, they are not compelled to receive the vaccination, nor are they compelled to enter the store, business, gym, sports arena, school, etc. No rights are being denied.

I don't disagree with you that hard, scientific data relating to the COVID-19 virus and the COVID-19 vaccination has been obfuscated, some times deliberately, by people of certain political leanings (and one in particular). And it's also true that mainstream media can further confuse matters with superficial or ignorant reporting. However, if that's a problem, then go to scientific sources, and intelligently follow their advice.






"Sometimes the best things in life are a hot girl and a cold beer."



Offline Shiela_M

  • POY 2020, 2021, & 2022
  • Burnt at the stake
  • *******
    • Posts: 6,192
    • Woos/Boos: +3347/-6
    • Gender: Female
  • I said it's weird, not that I wouldn't do it.
Reply #1361 on: August 04, 2021, 03:47:10 PM
From my point of view, I just dont understand how it does not somehow violate HIPAA. As you said, show a piece of paper, but that piece of paper indicates that you had something medical done.

Like you I'm not a lawyer either. Like you had pointed out before its probably because they are not forced to go to these places, and if they voluntarily do go, then they have to follow the rules of the business.

In my head, I do not understand how the government can force companies to check for vaccines. Apparently it's not unconstitutional, I'm just not smart enough to understand why it isn't.



Offline Jed_

  • Freakishly Strange
  • ******
    • Posts: 4,824
    • Woos/Boos: +413/-12
    • Gender: Male
  • I really am a demon that defiles helpless girls
    • Forbidden Forced Fantasy
Reply #1362 on: August 05, 2021, 12:23:00 AM

I’m at the point where I give up and try to look at the bright side.  At the same time Republicans are gerrymandering and placing obstacles to Democrats voting, they are deliberately reducing the number of Republicans by letting them die.  Well, they can all go accept their Darwin Awards at the Pearly Gates.






Offline purpleshoes

  • Freakishly Strange
  • ******
    • Posts: 1,115
    • Woos/Boos: +475/-3
Reply #1363 on: August 05, 2021, 12:24:13 PM



Offline MissBarbara

  • Burnt at the stake
  • *******
    • Posts: 16,182
    • Woos/Boos: +3189/-41
    • Gender: Female
Reply #1364 on: August 05, 2021, 03:05:04 PM

From my point of view, I just dont understand how it does not somehow violate HIPAA. As you said, show a piece of paper, but that piece of paper indicates that you had something medical done.

Like you I'm not a lawyer either. Like you had pointed out before its probably because they are not forced to go to these places, and if they voluntarily do go, then they have to follow the rules of the business.

In my head, I do not understand how the government can force companies to check for vaccines. Apparently it's not unconstitutional, I'm just not smart enough to understand why it isn't.


It doesn't violate HIPPA because neither you nor anyone else is required to reveal that "you had something medical done."

HIPPA was designed to ensure that private medical information remains private, and its regulations chiefly apply to medical providers and those who maintain medical information. The government cannot force a medical provider or insurance to provide information about you. That's not what is happening here.






"Sometimes the best things in life are a hot girl and a cold beer."



Offline Shiela_M

  • POY 2020, 2021, & 2022
  • Burnt at the stake
  • *******
    • Posts: 6,192
    • Woos/Boos: +3347/-6
    • Gender: Female
  • I said it's weird, not that I wouldn't do it.
Reply #1365 on: August 05, 2021, 05:02:49 PM

From my point of view, I just dont understand how it does not somehow violate HIPAA. As you said, show a piece of paper, but that piece of paper indicates that you had something medical done.

Like you I'm not a lawyer either. Like you had pointed out before its probably because they are not forced to go to these places, and if they voluntarily do go, then they have to follow the rules of the business.

In my head, I do not understand how the government can force companies to check for vaccines. Apparently it's not unconstitutional, I'm just not smart enough to understand why it isn't.


It doesn't violate HIPPA because neither you nor anyone else is required to reveal that "you had something medical done."

HIPPA was designed to ensure that private medical information remains private, and its regulations chiefly apply to medical providers and those who maintain medical information. The government cannot force a medical provider or insurance to provide information about you. That's not what is happening here.



My problem is that I am a vet tech, and we have to follow HIPAA laws and guidelines as well, so I'm coming from that mindset.

To be clear, I'm not trying to argue with anybody here, I'm just trying to get my head around it.  If that requirement is ever put into place here, then I'll follow it just like the masks, it's just how my head is trying to process this.



Offline watcher1

  • POY 2010
  • Burnt at the stake
  • *******
    • Posts: 16,989
    • Woos/Boos: +1720/-56
    • Gender: Male
  • Gentleman Pervert
Reply #1366 on: August 05, 2021, 06:57:31 PM

To be clear, I'm not trying to argue with anybody here, I'm just trying to get my head around it.  If that requirement is ever put into place here, then I'll follow it just like the masks, it's just how my head is trying to process this.

Shiela mentioning head?  ;D ;D 

Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds.


Offline Lois

  • Super Freak
  • Burnt at the stake
  • ******
    • Posts: 11,152
    • Woos/Boos: +768/-56
Reply #1367 on: August 06, 2021, 08:50:09 AM
The government can require you wear a helmet when driving or riding on a motorcycle.  Why? Because the taxpayers pay when helmet-less idiots end up with brain injuries that take months to recover and often result in permanant disability (meaning they collect Social Security Disability of SSI the rest of their lives.)

The government has a fiduciary duty to look out for us taxpayers, so they pass laws to protect us.

COVID can also cause people to end up in the hospital. Hospitalization and possible intubation, with months of recovery (costing hundreds of thousands of dollars in unpaid medical bills which also gets passsed on to us taxpayers), creates a very similar situation

I also find it ludicrous that the same people yelling about the harm to economy done by stay-at-home orders and other "shut-downs" are the same ones resisting the vaccine.  They should all be arrested for sedition and threatening national security, because guess what folks: China does not have to create a bio-weapon that kills people, just one that clogs our hospitals and shuts down our economy. It's the anti-vaxxers that are letting this continue to happen.

Fucking traitors!  Be patriotic, get the vaccine!



Offline seeker83

  • Deviant
  • ****
    • Posts: 328
    • Woos/Boos: +41/-1
    • Gender: Male
  • Don't be a nice guy, be yourself.
Reply #1368 on: August 06, 2021, 02:14:49 PM
OK, I know this is in room 1408 so, I will get some flak for saying this.

Note: I am vaccinated, I am affiliated with no political party (but I do vote), and I never voted for Trump (or Biden, or Hilary).

The vaccine, sharing vaccine data, and other COVID-related insanity are hurt by political and media ideology.  We definitely know Trump put out plenty of BS about the virus.  However, Trump was also completely the reason for Operation Warp Speed which fast-tracked the creation of the vaccine.  Prior to the election VP Kamela Harris openly stated she wouldn't get a vaccine created under Trump's administration, and yet when the election was over, she got the jab just like most people.  Heck, Trump got the shot even after having COVID.  Note: This is not a defense of Trump, all of his policies, his rhetoric, etc.  I'm just stating a few facts.  I'll also note that the media does love sound bites and taking things out of context REGARDLESS of the politician, so long as it makes for emotion-inducing coverage.

So my first point is that focusing on political ideology is going to kill our response and vaccination rate.  All of us have a tendency to side with the narrative or team we believe most in, which makes sense.  However, we also have a tendency to demonize the "other" side.  Is it the most intelligent thing in the world to run blindly around and shout "freedom" instead of adhering to mask mandates or getting vaccinated?  NO!  Does that mean that even if a higher percentage of Republicans or Republican-controlled states it necessarily means every person represents that specific ideology?  NO!

I think the narrative has become, "if you don't mask and/or get your vaccine, you are a moron, selfish, and deserve to be treated as a traitor".  How do any of us think that this would encourage such a person to change their ways?  I know for me, if someone belittles me, makes me feel like I don't have a place in society, and generally demonizes me, I'm either going to stay hidden out of the fear I'll be shamed for doing the thing but being late to the party, retreat and stay hidden altogether or dig my heels in and stand on my high horse simply to spite the other side.  Not to mention that when the media echos these beliefs, implying that only the "idiot Republican south states" are responsible, it is basically belittling our own citizens.

The narrative often doesn't focus on true care and concern for the individuals themselves, but instead, "why can't these morons get their acts together", "they are putting ME and MY FAMILY at risk", "they are killing our country and everything we stand for".  Anyone who tries to voice a legitimate fear over vaccination, the fast-track process, and other such things is labeled as an anti-vaxxer or stupid without even giving their thoughts a true moment for consideration.  I'm not talking about the true anti-vaxxer arguments about magnetic arms and mind control either, but people who have questions about the development of the vaccines, etc.  No, this isn't everyone, but it is the narrative pushed by the media.  No vaccination?  Questioning lockdowns?  Refusing to wear a mask?  You are a danger to yourself, your country, and are a moron to boot!

The media also ignores several things which people should have some legitimate concern about.
1. While the J&J Viral Vector vaccine technique has been used before, the MRNA vaccine is a much newer technology with next to no track record.  The technology was developed to produce custom cancer treatments for individuals.  I'm not saying it makes the technology ineffective or harmful, I am saying that yes, it is a new technology, and I personally chose the J&J because I wanted to get a vaccination but I wanted something that was based on a more tested delivery method.
2. There is no scientific consensus on vaccine viability/effectiveness against variants and in terms of how long immunity lasts.  Some studies say at least 4-6 months, but that isn't very comforting, especially to someone who is already hesitant.
3. Drug companies use the media to push their products, this is no secret.  But what is even better is when drug companies push narratives about the competitor vaccine not being as good, etc.  The J&J isn't as good as Pfizer/Moderna.  The Moderna vaccine does this, but the Pfizer vaccine does that.   The vaccine does work, it doesn't work, it sort of works.  This creates confusion and hesitancy.
4. This is only a personal belief and I am not a scientist.  The vaccines' effectiveness is not measured by their ability to prevent overall infection.  The vaccines' effectiveness is measured by their ability to reduce the need to go to the hospital.  99% effective against serious infection.  Some studies report 99% against infection in general but that when they do get infected, the breakthrough case won't be lethal. https://www.wcpo.com/news/national/coronavirus/99-99-of-those-fully-vaccinated-in-us-havent-had-deadly-breakthrough-case-cdc-data-shows

I may be dumb, I may be wrong, but I don't remember a vaccine's effectiveness measured not by its overall ability to prevent the disease through the creation of antibodies but based on its ability to prevent death in the case that you do get the disease after being vaccinated.  In fact, when the media reports on breakthrough infections, and there have been plenty of these news reports, they say that the infections prove the vaccine is WORKING because the person didn't have to go to the hospital.

I'm sorry, but if I have a vaccine for measles, mumps, chickenpox, rubella, and hepatitis B, and then GET the disease at all, I consider that a failure of the vaccine.  Traditional vaccines use dead viruses to trigger a legitimate immune response that generates antibodies.  The COVID vaccines, regardless of which one, do NOT do this.  Instead, they act almost like a virus themselves forcing our bodies to produce the spike proteins on the outside of the actual virus.  It isn't the same process.  Does it mean people shouldn't get vaccinated?  NO!  However, does it lead me, a rational, free-thinking person to question whether the vaccine is truly as effective as other vaccines?  Yes, it does.

TLDR

1. Truly anti-vaxxer people deserve ridicule, however, I don't believe most hesitant people fall into this group.  Most people, who happen to be in Republican states, are probably concerned for legitimate reasons, and it doesn't help when the media calls them stupid, labels them as traitors, etc.  In short, these people are HUMAN BEINGS despite their reservations.  You will only see the most extreme people on TV or online because that is what sells outrage and advertising.
2. The narrative tends to be more about how people not getting vaccinations are selfish because of their impact on others and less about a sense of concern for those individuals' wellbeing.
3. The media mocks true concerns/questions of people which arguably do have legitimate and good responses.  I may not know those responses myself, but there probably are good responses to these questions.  It is better to find ways to address those questions than to shoot people down because of them.

I don't know, maybe I am an unnecessary optimist here.  I just don't see the sense of demonizing people for their fear of the unknown.  This whole situation is unknown to all of us.  All of us have experienced fear because of it.  Maybe not all of us have hurt others directly, or indirectly out of that fear or even stubbornness, but can we all not find situations in our lives where we have?

Maybe we just need to shift the narrative to one not based on politics, panic, or hate, and instead, actually make the narrative about compassion and concern.  It's just a thought and maybe a naive one at that.



Offline Jed_

  • Freakishly Strange
  • ******
    • Posts: 4,824
    • Woos/Boos: +413/-12
    • Gender: Male
  • I really am a demon that defiles helpless girls
    • Forbidden Forced Fantasy
Reply #1369 on: August 06, 2021, 04:08:14 PM
Here a copy of a headline from one of your comments:

Kamala Harris says she will be 'first in line' for a coronavirus vaccine if health experts approve it, but 'if Donald Trump tells us we should take it, then I'm not taking it'

Considering Trump suggested bleach, disinfectants like Lysol and was acting as a snake oil salesman hawking things like Hydroxychloroquine, a distrust of anything he would push, without advice of health experts, is certainly reasonable.

The media I’ve watched (that is accused as being left bias) has given Trump credit for Warp Speed.  We all know that credit is what he was after, and the only thing he was after, not the health of people.  And all he would have to do to get people on the right to take ‘his’ vaccines is just to tell them to, that’s it.  But he won’t, because after calling it a hoax for so long and saying it would go away on its own and repeatedly going against the advice of health experts, he’s afraid advocating for getting the vaccine will make him look like a fool, something he cannot consider even if it’s killing his supporters.

And all the Republicans are following along with this political nonsense that is getting people killed.  They are acting like this is what our team does, we don’t mask and we don’t get the shot, because that’s what Trump wants.  Biden is begging people to get vaccinated, pleading with them, but that only hardens their resolve of ‘If the libs want us to get it, it must be a lib plot.’  I have also not seen anyone in the media or any Democrats calling these antivax/antimask people morons.  They’re getting called morons on social media by people like me, because they are fucking morons.  Darwin would be proud.



Offline MissBarbara

  • Burnt at the stake
  • *******
    • Posts: 16,182
    • Woos/Boos: +3189/-41
    • Gender: Female
Reply #1370 on: August 06, 2021, 10:24:44 PM

Here a copy of a headline from one of your comments:

Kamala Harris says she will be 'first in line' for a coronavirus vaccine if health experts approve it, but 'if Donald Trump tells us we should take it, then I'm not taking it'

Considering Trump suggested bleach, disinfectants like Lysol and was acting as a snake oil salesman hawking things like Hydroxychloroquine, a distrust of anything he would push, without advice of health experts, is certainly reasonable.

The media I’ve watched (that is accused as being left bias) has given Trump credit for Warp Speed.  We all know that credit is what he was after, and the only thing he was after, not the health of people.  And all he would have to do to get people on the right to take ‘his’ vaccines is just to tell them to, that’s it.  But he won’t, because after calling it a hoax for so long and saying it would go away on its own and repeatedly going against the advice of health experts, he’s afraid advocating for getting the vaccine will make him look like a fool, something he cannot consider even if it’s killing his supporters.

And all the Republicans are following along with this political nonsense that is getting people killed.  They are acting like this is what our team does, we don’t mask and we don’t get the shot, because that’s what Trump wants.  Biden is begging people to get vaccinated, pleading with them, but that only hardens their resolve of ‘If the libs want us to get it, it must be a lib plot.’  I have also not seen anyone in the media or any Democrats calling these antivax/antimask people morons.  They’re getting called morons on social media by people like me, because they are fucking morons.  Darwin would be proud.


To add to your comments, Operation Warp Speed did not "fast-track the creation of the vaccine." It fast-tracked the approval and distribution of the vaccine. The "Pfizer Vaccine" was created by a German Company (BioNTech), and it is only produced and distributed by Pfizer.

Meanwhile, here's what the creator of Operation Warp Speed, Alex Azar, has to say about vaccination hesitancy (to put it mildly) by those on the Right:

"The reluctance and even refusal of many Americans — including many of my fellow conservatives and Republicans — to get a COVID-19 vaccine is a frustrating irony for those of us who worked to expedite these vaccines," wrote Azar. "While the vaccines have had doubts cast upon them by politicians throughout their production and rollout. They work incredibly well, and more than 160 million fully vaccinated Americans are proof."

And this line from Seeker's post jumped out at me:

"There is no scientific consensus on vaccine viability/effectiveness against variants and in terms of how long immunity lasts.  Some studies say at least 4-6 months, but that isn't very comforting, especially to someone who is already hesitant."

While it's true that there currently is not a scientific consensus indicating exactly how long immunity lasts, that should not be a reason not to receive the vaccine. Sure, you could wait "4-6 months" until this information is determined, but most people do not want to risk contracting -- or dying from -- COVID-19 in the ensuing time. That's why most vaccines need boosters.

Further, I find this assertion troubling:

"The media mocks true concerns/questions of people which arguably do have legitimate and good responses.  I may not know those responses myself, but there probably are good responses to these questions.  It is better to find ways to address those questions than to shoot people down because of them."

"The media" (and that could refer to many different things) does not mock legitimate, science-based concerns about the virus or the vaccine, media commentators mock those who explicitly state that they refuse the vaccine for political, polemical, or otherwise non-scientific reasons. And it's precisely those same people who are spreading disinformation, and sowing further confusion and hesitancy.

The main point is this: Outlining reasons for vaccine hesitancy promotes vaccine hesitancy, and labeling many of the scientific aspects of both the COVID virus and the COVID vaccination as "unknowns" even further promotes vaccine hesitancy.



 



"Sometimes the best things in life are a hot girl and a cold beer."



Offline seeker83

  • Deviant
  • ****
    • Posts: 328
    • Woos/Boos: +41/-1
    • Gender: Male
  • Don't be a nice guy, be yourself.
Reply #1371 on: August 06, 2021, 10:27:26 PM
I appreciate everyone's responses and some of them have made me re-evaluate my presumptions here.



Offline Jed_

  • Freakishly Strange
  • ******
    • Posts: 4,824
    • Woos/Boos: +413/-12
    • Gender: Male
  • I really am a demon that defiles helpless girls
    • Forbidden Forced Fantasy
Reply #1372 on: August 07, 2021, 03:14:34 AM
I appreciate everyone's responses and some of them have made me re-evaluate my presumptions here.


+ 1 for saying that.

The constant talk about ‘not fully approved yet’ and ‘not tested enough’ bothers me the most.  The final testing of vaccines and drugs is by putting them in people and seeing what happens.  Well, they are in hundreds of millions of people now, and we see those people protected from a deadly virus.  It’s probably the most thorough testing that’s ever done for vaccines.



Offline MissBarbara

  • Burnt at the stake
  • *******
    • Posts: 16,182
    • Woos/Boos: +3189/-41
    • Gender: Female
Reply #1373 on: August 07, 2021, 03:27:04 AM

I appreciate everyone's responses and some of them have made me re-evaluate my presumptions here.



+ 1 for saying that.


From me, too.






"Sometimes the best things in life are a hot girl and a cold beer."



Offline seeker83

  • Deviant
  • ****
    • Posts: 328
    • Woos/Boos: +41/-1
    • Gender: Male
  • Don't be a nice guy, be yourself.
Reply #1374 on: August 07, 2021, 03:44:21 AM

I appreciate everyone's responses and some of them have made me re-evaluate my presumptions here.



+ 1 for saying that.


From me, too.






I'm trying to be more open-minded.  Rigidity has gotten me into a lot of problems in the past.  At the same time, I also don't want to roll over on things just to please other people.  However, the conversation here has at least made me pause to think that maybe I am not taking everything into consideration.



_priapism

  • Guest
Reply #1375 on: August 07, 2021, 05:01:45 AM
This pretty much says everything from my point of view.  Nothing left to discuss.  If you are too stupid to listen to experts who have made epidemics their life long pursuit and investigation, then hey. Good luck.  I’m beyond giving a shit.

I suspected there were a lot of stupid people in this world.  Trump and Covid have shown me it’s 10 times worse than what I imagined.







Offline Jed_

  • Freakishly Strange
  • ******
    • Posts: 4,824
    • Woos/Boos: +413/-12
    • Gender: Male
  • I really am a demon that defiles helpless girls
    • Forbidden Forced Fantasy
Reply #1376 on: August 07, 2021, 06:15:35 AM
It’s about being educated.  When I say educated, I mean not just having a reservoir of ever increasing knowledge, but the ability to think critically about that knowledge and the new input.  Thinking critically to me means how do you discern the true information from the false or highly suspect.  The most important thing is to very critically evaluate anything that you want to believe in, that seems to validate your beliefs and biases.  Just because you want to believe it, doesn’t make it true; in fact you should look very hard at those things.  Is the source credible?  Maybe, but look into it more by checking other credible sources, as in fact checking.  Certainly some issues are controversial and have two sides with valid arguments, so check the arguments.  Here’s how I phrase it to some of my friends, it’s about being able to tell shit from shine.

Also when I say educated, I don’t necessarily mean college educated.  Plenty of people that never went to college managed to become self-educated.  And even more people that did go to college somehow completely escaped becoming educated.

Now onto the source of the virus.  It’s still unknown.  A lab origin in China has gained some traction lately, accidental release.  That to my current knowledge is based on how fast it replicates or grows (as if it was grown in a lab where any faster growing variant will always become more prevalent in the culture).  A natural origin is still the most likely according to the experts.  It is possible however there was resistance to considering a lab origin, seeing that as a racist theory pushed for political goals (and because Trump always blames everything on someone else).  Certainly China isn’t going to help figure out if they fucked up and let it out.  We probably will never know for sure.  If by chance it was proven to be ‘lab escaped’ in the near future, some will jump on that and exclaim, ‘Trump was right!’   Sure, in the same way a broken clock is right twice a day.  Being right about something is using the facts to arrive at a valid conclusion, not selecting what you think benefits you most and declaring that’s what happened.



Offline Lois

  • Super Freak
  • Burnt at the stake
  • ******
    • Posts: 11,152
    • Woos/Boos: +768/-56
Reply #1377 on: August 08, 2021, 08:46:34 PM
There's a group of people saying it simply could not have occured in nature for some rediculous reason, something about not finding a natural resivour of the virus.  And yet cats, dogs, mink and deer are known to be walking about infected outside of China.



Offline MissBarbara

  • Burnt at the stake
  • *******
    • Posts: 16,182
    • Woos/Boos: +3189/-41
    • Gender: Female
Reply #1378 on: August 08, 2021, 10:25:18 PM

There's a group of people saying it simply could not have occured in nature for some rediculous reason, something about not finding a natural resivour of the virus.  And yet cats, dogs, mink and deer are known to be walking about infected outside of China.


That's true. One of the tigers in the Bronx Zoo tested positive for COVID-19.





"Sometimes the best things in life are a hot girl and a cold beer."



Offline MintJulie

  • ~. Version Number 9.15.0 ~
  • Super Freak
  • Burnt at the stake
  • ******
    • Posts: 10,934
    • Woos/Boos: +1811/-23
    • Gender: Female
  • Madame Sheriff
Reply #1379 on: August 08, 2021, 10:53:18 PM

.
          You might not know this, but I have a thing for Tom Brady (and Bill Clinton)
Version 9.15
POY 2016