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Offline IrishGirl

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Reply #40 on: September 15, 2018, 10:53:08 PM

But the College wasn't devised because of it.  The college was devised because we are the "United States"  We are not one singular government we are 50 individual governments that make large decisions as one.


Actually, we're "The United States." It may seem like a microscopic difference, but it's actually huge: We decidedly are not "50 individual governments that make large decisions as one." We are one nation where sovereignty rests not in the states -- as it did before the Constitution was ratified -- but in the people. In terms of the Electoral College the states -- individually or collectively -- are little more than administrative districts.



The system was devised so that those thirteen little governments could over rule the one big government on matters of slavery, of if Burr used his populace connections in New York as a bid for king--as he did, it was made so one part of the government could be overruled if it overstepped its power.


Same mistake. The system wasn't devised so "those thirteen little governments" could overrule the federal government: It was designed to the people could overrule the federal government.






Well, if we weren't 50 little governments, than we also wouldn't have 50 states represented in Congress would we?  We would literally Only have the House of Representatives and the President.  The states are given the Senate, they are represented in the legislative branch because they are little governments, this is also why the Federal Government has to go through congress and the Supreme court to overturn state law and visa versa.

Your "little more than administrative districts" really holds no baring in the real world.  The states have representation in the federal government, that is what the Senate is.


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Offline MissBarbara

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Reply #41 on: September 15, 2018, 11:51:16 PM

But the College wasn't devised because of it.  The college was devised because we are the "United States"  We are not one singular government we are 50 individual governments that make large decisions as one.


Actually, we're "The United States." It may seem like a microscopic difference, but it's actually huge: We decidedly are not "50 individual governments that make large decisions as one." We are one nation where sovereignty rests not in the states -- as it did before the Constitution was ratified -- but in the people. In terms of the Electoral College the states -- individually or collectively -- are little more than administrative districts.



The system was devised so that those thirteen little governments could over rule the one big government on matters of slavery, of if Burr used his populace connections in New York as a bid for king--as he did, it was made so one part of the government could be overruled if it overstepped its power.


Same mistake. The system wasn't devised so "those thirteen little governments" could overrule the federal government: It was designed to the people could overrule the federal government.


Well, if we weren't 50 little governments, than we also wouldn't have 50 states represented in Congress would we?  We would literally Only have the House of Representatives and the President.  The states are given the Senate, they are represented in the legislative branch because they are little governments, this is also why the Federal Government has to go through congress and the Supreme court to overturn state law and visa versa.

Your "little more than administrative districts" really holds no baring in the real world.  The states have representation in the federal government, that is what the Senate is.


The House is one, national legislative body. And the Senate is as well.

The district or state that elected the given legislator disappears when they come together as a whole.

The "checks and balances" you refer to have nothing to do with the states, but rather, the balance between the three branches of the federal government.









"Sometimes the best things in life are a hot girl and a cold beer."



Offline Katiebee

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Reply #42 on: September 15, 2018, 11:54:58 PM
I love civics 101.

There are three kinds of people in the world. Those who can count, and those who can't.


Offline IrishGirl

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Reply #43 on: September 15, 2018, 11:57:00 PM

But the College wasn't devised because of it.  The college was devised because we are the "United States"  We are not one singular government we are 50 individual governments that make large decisions as one.


Actually, we're "The United States." It may seem like a microscopic difference, but it's actually huge: We decidedly are not "50 individual governments that make large decisions as one." We are one nation where sovereignty rests not in the states -- as it did before the Constitution was ratified -- but in the people. In terms of the Electoral College the states -- individually or collectively -- are little more than administrative districts.



The system was devised so that those thirteen little governments could over rule the one big government on matters of slavery, of if Burr used his populace connections in New York as a bid for king--as he did, it was made so one part of the government could be overruled if it overstepped its power.


Same mistake. The system wasn't devised so "those thirteen little governments" could overrule the federal government: It was designed to the people could overrule the federal government.


Well, if we weren't 50 little governments, than we also wouldn't have 50 states represented in Congress would we?  We would literally Only have the House of Representatives and the President.  The states are given the Senate, they are represented in the legislative branch because they are little governments, this is also why the Federal Government has to go through congress and the Supreme court to overturn state law and visa versa.

Your "little more than administrative districts" really holds no baring in the real world.  The states have representation in the federal government, that is what the Senate is.


The House is one, national legislative body. And the Senate is as well.

The district or state that elected the given legislator disappears when they come together as a whole.

The "checks and balances" you refer to have nothing to do with the states, but rather, the balance between the three branches of the federal government.









You are right, they are...and the HOUSE is based on population, so it will be the populace voice.  And the Senate is by State, so the States can have their say in the Federal Government.

So, to review:

House represents the people.
Senate represents the STATES...because they we are the UNITED STATES and a series of little Governments UNITING under a Federal one.


Just another surplus living the American dream


Offline MissBarbara

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Reply #44 on: September 16, 2018, 03:01:56 PM

But the College wasn't devised because of it.  The college was devised because we are the "United States"  We are not one singular government we are 50 individual governments that make large decisions as one.


Actually, we're "The United States." It may seem like a microscopic difference, but it's actually huge: We decidedly are not "50 individual governments that make large decisions as one." We are one nation where sovereignty rests not in the states -- as it did before the Constitution was ratified -- but in the people. In terms of the Electoral College the states -- individually or collectively -- are little more than administrative districts.



The system was devised so that those thirteen little governments could over rule the one big government on matters of slavery, of if Burr used his populace connections in New York as a bid for king--as he did, it was made so one part of the government could be overruled if it overstepped its power.


Same mistake. The system wasn't devised so "those thirteen little governments" could overrule the federal government: It was designed to the people could overrule the federal government.


Well, if we weren't 50 little governments, than we also wouldn't have 50 states represented in Congress would we?  We would literally Only have the House of Representatives and the President.  The states are given the Senate, they are represented in the legislative branch because they are little governments, this is also why the Federal Government has to go through congress and the Supreme court to overturn state law and visa versa.

Your "little more than administrative districts" really holds no baring in the real world.  The states have representation in the federal government, that is what the Senate is.


The House is one, national legislative body. And the Senate is as well.

The district or state that elected the given legislator disappears when they come together as a whole.

The "checks and balances" you refer to have nothing to do with the states, but rather, the balance between the three branches of the federal government.


You are right, they are...and the HOUSE is based on population, so it will be the populace voice.  And the Senate is by State, so the States can have their say in the Federal Government.

So, to review:

House represents the people.
Senate represents the STATES...because they we are the UNITED STATES and a series of little Governments UNITING under a Federal one.



I'm unclear of the source of your anti-Federalism, but while the Senators come from the individual states, when they unite as a body they represent the nation as a whole, and every citizen therein. They may come from little governments, but they do not represent them.

To take an obvious example, I've been closely following the Kavanaugh hearings in the Senate, and I've yet to hear one, single Senator, on either side of the aisle, evaluate him based on how he will serve an individual state.







"Sometimes the best things in life are a hot girl and a cold beer."



Offline IrishGirl

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Reply #45 on: September 16, 2018, 07:20:42 PM

But the College wasn't devised because of it.  The college was devised because we are the "United States"  We are not one singular government we are 50 individual governments that make large decisions as one.


Actually, we're "The United States." It may seem like a microscopic difference, but it's actually huge: We decidedly are not "50 individual governments that make large decisions as one." We are one nation where sovereignty rests not in the states -- as it did before the Constitution was ratified -- but in the people. In terms of the Electoral College the states -- individually or collectively -- are little more than administrative districts.



The system was devised so that those thirteen little governments could over rule the one big government on matters of slavery, of if Burr used his populace connections in New York as a bid for king--as he did, it was made so one part of the government could be overruled if it overstepped its power.


Same mistake. The system wasn't devised so "those thirteen little governments" could overrule the federal government: It was designed to the people could overrule the federal government.


Well, if we weren't 50 little governments, than we also wouldn't have 50 states represented in Congress would we?  We would literally Only have the House of Representatives and the President.  The states are given the Senate, they are represented in the legislative branch because they are little governments, this is also why the Federal Government has to go through congress and the Supreme court to overturn state law and visa versa.

Your "little more than administrative districts" really holds no baring in the real world.  The states have representation in the federal government, that is what the Senate is.


The House is one, national legislative body. And the Senate is as well.

The district or state that elected the given legislator disappears when they come together as a whole.

The "checks and balances" you refer to have nothing to do with the states, but rather, the balance between the three branches of the federal government.


You are right, they are...and the HOUSE is based on population, so it will be the populace voice.  And the Senate is by State, so the States can have their say in the Federal Government.

So, to review:

House represents the people.
Senate represents the STATES...because they we are the UNITED STATES and a series of little Governments UNITING under a Federal one.



I'm unclear of the source of your anti-Federalism, but while the Senators come from the individual states, when they unite as a body they represent the nation as a whole, and every citizen therein. They may come from little governments, but they do not represent them.

To take an obvious example, I've been closely following the Kavanaugh hearings in the Senate, and I've yet to hear one, single Senator, on either side of the aisle, evaluate him based on how he will serve an individual state.







What are you on about? I was quoting the Federalists, not the Anti-Federalists.

Hamilton, Jay, Adams, Pinckney, Clinton, King.

The Federalists.  I don't know where you're getting a link with the Anti-Federalists.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 07:22:30 PM by IrishGirl »

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psiberzerker

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Reply #46 on: September 16, 2018, 08:01:52 PM
What are you on about? I was quoting the Federalists, not the Anti-Federalists.

Hamilton, Jay, Adams, Pinckney, Clinton, King.

The Federalists.  I don't know where you're getting a link with the Anti-Federalists.

Uhm, could you either cut down the 7 layers of nested quotes you had nothing more inciteful to add to than "What you talking 'bout, Willis?" or throw some olives on with the Jalapeño slices to top off that clusterfuck of a Party dip?  

Also, calling Martin Luther King (I'm just guessing) a "Federalist" (Or was it Billie Jean?) isn't going to repeal the 10th Amendment any time soon.  The question was about States vs National law enforcemtn, not the Civil Rights revolution of the 60s.  

At least connect the dots, or save us a whole fucking lot of scrolling...
« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 08:12:29 PM by psiberzerker »



Offline IrishGirl

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Reply #47 on: September 16, 2018, 08:41:27 PM
What are you on about? I was quoting the Federalists, not the Anti-Federalists.

Hamilton, Jay, Adams, Pinckney, Clinton, King.

The Federalists.  I don't know where you're getting a link with the Anti-Federalists.

Uhm, could you either cut down the 7 layers of nested quotes you had nothing more inciteful to add to than "What you talking 'bout, Willis?" or throw some olives on with the Jalapeño slices to top off that clusterfuck of a Party dip?  

Also, calling Martin Luther King (I'm just guessing) a "Federalist" (Or was it Billie Jean?) isn't going to repeal the 10th Amendment any time soon.  The question was about States vs National law enforcemtn, not the Civil Rights revolution of the 60s.  

At least connect the dots, or save us a whole fucking lot of scrolling...

If you don't know your own history, why are you trying to comment on it?  Seriously, this is elementary school shit that just went three feet over your head didn't it?

Literally the reason it's not making sense to you is because you know so little about your own history that you mistook Rufus King for Martin Luther King Jr.  And Dewitt Clinton for either Bill or Hillary.

And I am guessing that The Federalists and Anti-Federalists are just as removed from they actually are, aren't they?

But do, yes, continue as if you're on the same page as everyone else.  Or, you can actually read and look up what you don't understand before commenting.  That will really help you out a bit.

Never mind, I'll do it for you:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=The+Federalist+Papers

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=The+anti-federalist+papers
« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 08:52:26 PM by IrishGirl »

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geezer

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Reply #48 on: September 16, 2018, 11:59:24 PM
no comment
« Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 06:52:40 PM by geezer »



Offline Levorotatory

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Reply #49 on: September 17, 2018, 01:39:37 AM
Regardless of the historical intent, how can the electoral college "put small states on an equal footing with larger states" when electoral votes are allocated by population?  It doesn't make any sense. 



Offline IrishGirl

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Reply #50 on: September 17, 2018, 01:57:16 AM
Regardless of the historical intent, how can the electoral college "put small states on an equal footing with larger states" when electoral votes are allocated by population?  It doesn't make any sense. 

It does when you realize that the people in cities like Boston, New York, do not have the same governmental needs as Montana does.  And, without the Senate to give them equal footing in congress, and the electoral college to force the Executive branch to address them..millions of people will be left out.

And in some cases, completely disenfranchised when you take into regards that many rural areas are in poverty and it usually takes more money to run a city than is generated in tax dollars.

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Offline e_monster

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Reply #51 on: September 17, 2018, 02:29:04 AM
What the electoral college does is silence the voice of minority voters by assigning all of most state's electoral votes to one candidate regardless of the actual ratio of support, and force candidates to focus on the issues most important to the most divided states rather than those of the greatest national interest.

That's what its always seemed like to me.
 
The EC is a needless anachronism that's profoundly unfair to voters in politically lopsided states. I fundamentally disagree with the notion that a vote's impact should be weighted by its geographical location.

Do away with the EC.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2018, 03:09:11 AM by e_monster »

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Offline MissBarbara

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Reply #52 on: September 17, 2018, 06:01:35 PM

But the College wasn't devised because of it.  The college was devised because we are the "United States"  We are not one singular government we are 50 individual governments that make large decisions as one.


Actually, we're "The United States." It may seem like a microscopic difference, but it's actually huge: We decidedly are not "50 individual governments that make large decisions as one." We are one nation where sovereignty rests not in the states -- as it did before the Constitution was ratified -- but in the people. In terms of the Electoral College the states -- individually or collectively -- are little more than administrative districts.



The system was devised so that those thirteen little governments could over rule the one big government on matters of slavery, of if Burr used his populace connections in New York as a bid for king--as he did, it was made so one part of the government could be overruled if it overstepped its power.


Same mistake. The system wasn't devised so "those thirteen little governments" could overrule the federal government: It was designed to the people could overrule the federal government.


Well, if we weren't 50 little governments, than we also wouldn't have 50 states represented in Congress would we?  We would literally Only have the House of Representatives and the President.  The states are given the Senate, they are represented in the legislative branch because they are little governments, this is also why the Federal Government has to go through congress and the Supreme court to overturn state law and visa versa.

Your "little more than administrative districts" really holds no baring in the real world.  The states have representation in the federal government, that is what the Senate is.


The House is one, national legislative body. And the Senate is as well.

The district or state that elected the given legislator disappears when they come together as a whole.

The "checks and balances" you refer to have nothing to do with the states, but rather, the balance between the three branches of the federal government.


You are right, they are...and the HOUSE is based on population, so it will be the populace voice.  And the Senate is by State, so the States can have their say in the Federal Government.

So, to review:

House represents the people.
Senate represents the STATES...because they we are the UNITED STATES and a series of little Governments UNITING under a Federal one.



I'm unclear of the source of your anti-Federalism, but while the Senators come from the individual states, when they unite as a body they represent the nation as a whole, and every citizen therein. They may come from little governments, but they do not represent them.

To take an obvious example, I've been closely following the Kavanaugh hearings in the Senate, and I've yet to hear one, single Senator, on either side of the aisle, evaluate him based on how he will serve an individual state.


What are you on about? I was quoting the Federalists, not the Anti-Federalists.

Hamilton, Jay, Adams, Pinckney, Clinton, King.

The Federalists.  I don't know where you're getting a link with the Anti-Federalists.


I'm not sure what link you're referring to, but emphasizing the role of the states over the federal government is textbook anti-federalism.






"Sometimes the best things in life are a hot girl and a cold beer."



Offline MissBarbara

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Reply #53 on: September 17, 2018, 06:08:15 PM

What are you on about? I was quoting the Federalists, not the Anti-Federalists.

Hamilton, Jay, Adams, Pinckney, Clinton, King.

The Federalists.  I don't know where you're getting a link with the Anti-Federalists.


Uhm, could you either cut down the 7 layers of nested quotes you had nothing more inciteful to add to than "What you talking 'bout, Willis?" or throw some olives on with the Jalapeño slices to top off that clusterfuck of a Party dip?  

Also, calling Martin Luther King (I'm just guessing) a "Federalist" (Or was it Billie Jean?) isn't going to repeal the 10th Amendment any time soon.  The question was about States vs National law enforcemtn, not the Civil Rights revolution of the 60s.  

At least connect the dots, or save us a whole fucking lot of scrolling...


Are you slicing your jalapeños width-wise or length-wise? It makes a huge difference!

On top of that, there are many, many uses for jalapeños aside from dip. They compliment practically every Mexican dish (including Tex-Mex dishes), they're great on sandwiches, especially subs, and they're perfect with scrambled eggs (but put them on the eggs after they've finished cooking, and not while they're cooking). And, of course, they're great in chef salads.

And I believe she was referring to B.B. King. But I could be wrong...









"Sometimes the best things in life are a hot girl and a cold beer."



Offline IrishGirl

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Reply #54 on: September 17, 2018, 10:35:32 PM


I'm not sure what link you're referring to, but emphasizing the role of the states over the federal government is textbook anti-federalism.






The link to the Federalist papers that explained their thought process in creating the electoral college. 

In either case, that is an over-simplification of the Federalists and the Anti-Federalists. 

The main drive of the Federalists was the economy, that is combining the 13 individual debts to one large federal debt, and then just paying off the interest in order to buy allies abroad...mainly the people that we loaned money towards, but others that would see what we were doing and loan us more in the future to have that guaranteed source of income.

It was, however, the Anti-Federalists that pushed for a Bill of Rights to be added to the constitution in a trade-off for an executive branch, a Constitution, and executive appointed SCOTUS.

You're right, in that the Anti-Federalists were concerned about the Federal Government having too much power.  But that shouldn't be confused for State Power v Populace Power.

But it was the Federalists themselves that were concerned that a dictator would arise through the populace as easily as one would arise through Federal Power--a concern that the Anti-Federalists didn't have.  Because of this, it was the Federalists that pushed the hardest to counter-balance state and populace power.

It was an over-simplification because describing the Anti-Federalists as "State Power" is a lot easier to explain than "populace power" and mainly because their belief was that you could obtain more populace power by giving more control to the states as it's still the closest form of direct democracy.

When you look at the Federalist position, they already had a direct populace power in the form of the House...they wanted to counter-balance that and avoid the potential of a populace dictator by giving the states representation in the legislative branch...and creating the electoral college to prevent people like, say Burr, from making himself king.

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Reply #55 on: October 08, 2018, 01:23:18 AM
It is certainly time to end the electoral college.  It is a relic.

It also allows the people in a few swing states to decide the election in spite of what the majority wants.

Think about it.  We got Bush instead of Gore.  Would Gore have invaded Iraq and destablized the entire middle-east in his quest to redeem his father?  We are still paying for this blunder. Daesh anyone?

Then in 2016 we got Trump instead of Clinton.  Would Clinton have broken international treaties like Trump just because her ego convinced her she could do better?  Would she attack the press and freedom of speech?


https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis-terror/paris-attacks-what-does-daesh-mean-why-does-isis-hate-n463551

We would be much better off if the electoral college was dead and buried. RIP.



Offline joan1984

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Reply #56 on: October 08, 2018, 01:47:56 AM
  Seems one solution is to change not only the Electoral College, but the structure it represents. Since we all have two Senators (except DC of course), we as 'states' or equivalent are equal in that regard.

  Why not have an equal number of Representatives. Just choose whatever the largest number is today for a State, and adopt that as the number for each/all the States (or equivalent), so each of our locations has equal Representation in the House of Representatives, similar to the way we have equality in the Senate.

  That will fix a lot of things, right, equality all around. Since we don't need the Electoral College anymore, the havoc such a change to the number of Reps we have would cause will not be an issue. Good when we can work together.

  Now, how about Term Limits for House and Senate Members?

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psiberzerker

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Reply #57 on: October 08, 2018, 02:03:36 AM
 Now, how about Term Limits for House and Senate Members?  

Definitely, emphatically.  Restructuring the Election Process is doable, but just passing an Amendment (Unfortunately around Congress.  I'll cite the 27th Amendment, which was written as the 11th, and then got held back by Congress.  For 200 years.) to instate Term limits could be done in 2 years.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 02:19:51 AM by psiberzerker »



Offline Athos_131

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Reply #58 on: October 08, 2018, 02:16:22 AM
 (except DC of course)

Why am I not surprised you didn't mention American Samoa, Guam, Northern Mariana Islands or Puerto Rico.

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psiberzerker

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Reply #59 on: October 08, 2018, 02:22:09 AM
Why am I not surprised you didn't mention American Samoa, Guam, Northern Mariana Islands or Puerto Rico.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd probably give them a vote, for independence (And trade) or representation.  The military bases in some of those places would have to be worked out.