KRISTEN'S BOARD
Congratulations to 2024 Pervert of the Year Shiela_M and 2024 Author of the Year Writers Bloque!

News:

The National Popular Vote Initiative

MintJulie · 3055

0 Members and 6 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline IrishGirl

  • Deviant
  • ****
    • Posts: 350
    • Woos/Boos: +13/-6
    • Gender: Female
Reply #20 on: September 14, 2018, 04:07:02 AM
Yeah wow, that's a lot different than what the people that actually created the electoral college said.

I mean, don't take their word for it, you know, they only wrote it.  Best to leave it to someone writing a century later to create a new definition of why they made it...you know, instead of using a primary source for your proof.


Just another surplus living the American dream


Offline Lois

  • Super Freak
  • Burnt at the stake
  • ******
    • Posts: 11,159
    • Woos/Boos: +768/-57
Reply #21 on: September 14, 2018, 04:37:11 AM
I guess some things were just too shamefull to admit.



Offline IrishGirl

  • Deviant
  • ****
    • Posts: 350
    • Woos/Boos: +13/-6
    • Gender: Female
Reply #22 on: September 14, 2018, 05:16:51 AM
I guess some things were just too shamefull to admit.

That or, you know, a far simpler explanation that they created it for the same reason that we have two houses in congress.

You have the choice to believe a conspiracy theory, or what the people actually said.  And you're choosing to ignore primary documents for a propaganda piece. 

Just another surplus living the American dream


Offline Levorotatory

  • Deviant
  • ****
    • Posts: 359
    • Woos/Boos: +19/-0
    • Gender: Male
Reply #23 on: September 14, 2018, 07:45:04 AM
I can't possibly see how the Electoral College system is "essentially racist in nature."

The varying states' "value" was originally set by a combination of sizes of the white population and the black slave population, but the blacks were only valued at 3/5 of a white person. Lowering the legal worth of a person based purely on the colour of their skin is about as racist as it gets.

Quote
Perhaps more to the point, it's not exactly productive to judge a 230-year-old system by the results of one, single election.

I'm not - the last election is what brought the system to my attention, but I understand the college and popular results have been contradictory on more than one occasion. I am a firm believer in the democratic process, and do not approve of our own system, where the national premier is selected through being the head of the largest party in the lower house of Parliament, even if there has not been an actual election - Theresa May became the Prime Minister because her predecessor quit in the aftermath of Brexit, and nobody else stood against her in the campaign to be party leader.

A few thousand people voted her into Parliament, nobody elected her to be PM, and she remained PM after last election even though nearly 60% of those who voted did so for somebody else.

On the other hand, in parliamentary systems the entire cabinet are nearly always elected members of the House of Commons, while the only elected member of the US executive is the president (and I suppose the VP, but that election is tied to the presidential election).  Parliamentary systems also allow the government to be dismissed at any time should they lose the confidence of the House.  While that is rare in Canada and the UK due to strongly whipped votes and the first past the post electoral system that produces artificial majorities, it makes things interesting in countries with proportional representation.

Getting back to electing a president (and tangentially related to proportional representation), I think the possibility of using a ranked ballot is one of the best reasons for the USA to switch to a direct vote system.  As it is, any vote for a third party or independent candidate is essentially wasted, and a strong independent candidate can even skew the results of a close race by pulling more votes from one mainstream candidate than the other.  With a ranked ballot, voters could freely choose their favorite candidates, even if they have little hope of winning, and also indicate which of the mainstream candidates they would support after their first choice is eliminated.



Offline Quimby84

  • Pervert
  • **
    • Posts: 95
    • Woos/Boos: +14/-0
    • Gender: Male
  • SOM March 2018
Reply #24 on: September 14, 2018, 10:40:10 AM
The thing with a popular vote is that it give s room for more parties to contest elections even though they known they won't win.
This takes vital seats in decision making houses away from those who need them and can lead to messy coalitions.

Here in South Africa, we had 66 political parties contest our last election in 2014.
Of those, only 13 earned seats in parliament even though all 66 parties received votes.

Some only have 1 seat and so, in order to try push any agenda, would have to appeal to other parties with more votes.

We have 400 seats in Parliament. Those seats are awarded on a proportional basis.
IE: you got 67% of the popular vote, you get 67% of the seats in Parliament.
Once parliament is elected, THEY choose the president, NOT the public. They could vote for anyone they choose.
Usually it is the current president of the popular party and if they have more than 50% of the seats, they win the election.
Any laws that are passed here require a 2/3rds majority vote as well as any amendments to the constitution.
So any party that wins 67% of the vote can essentially do whatever thy want with the country and the opposing parties may as well not even bother attending parliament.

No political system is perfect and as a non american, I do not know all the intricacies of the electoral college but it is very easy to understand in terms of how the votes lead to electoral seats which lead to a new president and how each state is represented regardless of population.

Currently here, the major opposition part controls all of the manor cities and metropolitan areas and strive to make improvements, but because they don't have enough power to make changes without compromising to the ruling party, very little gets done because the ruling party would rather see them fail in the eyes of the people and win back the votes even though they blocked anything that was attempts in the first place.

In the end, a popular vote is dangerous.
Here,we have barcodes ID documents that you use to register to vote with and again show on voting day.
On voting day, parties are allowed to campaign at voting station.
When you vote, your ID is scanned and the serial number of your ballot paper is linked with your ID number.
While the government claims "free and fair" elections, they can tell who voted for who by name, what time you voted, where you live, your phone number and who you voted for previously.
In 1994, this was not the case, but through controlling parliament, the ruling party has been able to push through these laws unobstructed.
Even now, the controlling party is wanting to "amend" our constitution so that government may seize anyone's property (they will say land, but the proposed amendment currently being discussed uses the word property) without compensation or legal recourse if the government deems that anyone else has ancestral claim to your property or that it would be beneficial to government to own said property.
Essentially, they want to abolish private property rights.
Even though the main party does not have enough votes by itself to change the constitution, the 3rd largest party combined with them, will make up more than enough votes and the main opposition party can do nothing to stop them.

An electoral college would be far better suited to prevent dictatorships than a popular vote.

Again, no system is perfect, but your system is something I am sure many other countries wished they had.
I know South Africans do at least.

If there is grass on the pitch, you play!


Offline MissBarbara

  • Burnt at the stake
  • *******
    • Posts: 16,203
    • Woos/Boos: +3194/-41
    • Gender: Female
Reply #25 on: September 14, 2018, 04:33:57 PM

I find it interesting that both Lois and IrishGirl seem to frame their analysis of the Electoral college in terms of "states rights." It's chiefly interesting because one clearly seems to reject the concept of "states rights," while the other seems to support it.

"States rights" had nothing to do with the creation of the Electoral College. The Electoral College was a compromise between two competing proposals: A president elected by a straight popular vote, and a president elected by a vote by the Members of Congress. And the popular vote still forms the core of the Electoral College system: the electors cast their votes based on the popular vote total in their given state. There have been "faithless electors" -- electors who cast a vote opposite of the winner of the popular total in their state. But they have been very few and far between, and in no instance did they have even the tiniest effect on the outcome.

It's true that fear of demagoguery played a role in the Framers' decision to create the Electoral College. They feared -- correctly, in my opinion -- that a populist tyrant might sway an uninformed populace into electing him or her president. Though I would not describe our current president as a "populist tyrant," it's painfully clear that today we have an aggressively uninformed electorate (and an electorate that, by and large, doesn't usually bother to vote).

Today there is a new form of demagoguery that the Framers never even dreamed of: The Demagoguery of money. With presidential candidates sitting on campaign war chests containing well over $1 billion dollars, candidates are able to sway votes in new and previously unheard of ways. Any analysis or prescription for change in the way we elect our presidents should take a temporary back seat to this incomparably more pressing and anti-democratic phenomenon.


If ypu bothered to read what I saud, its about checks and balances


My bad!

When you wrote about "Kentucky, Ohio, Kansas, South Dakota, Montana," and when you wrote "the lower populated states," I thought you were referring to states.




« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 05:42:46 PM by MissBarbara »


"Sometimes the best things in life are a hot girl and a cold beer."



Offline Lois

  • Super Freak
  • Burnt at the stake
  • ******
    • Posts: 11,159
    • Woos/Boos: +768/-57
Reply #26 on: September 14, 2018, 05:13:10 PM
I guess some things were just too shamefull to admit.

That or, you know, a far simpler explanation that they created it for the same reason that we have two houses in congress.

You have the choice to believe a conspiracy theory, or what the people actually said.  And you're choosing to ignore primary documents for a propaganda piece.  

PBS does not publish propoganda.  LOL!  You did not even read it did you?
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 05:16:08 PM by Lois »



Offline MissBarbara

  • Burnt at the stake
  • *******
    • Posts: 16,203
    • Woos/Boos: +3194/-41
    • Gender: Female
Reply #27 on: September 14, 2018, 05:38:42 PM

I can't possibly see how the Electoral College system is "essentially racist in nature."


The varying states' "value" was originally set by a combination of sizes of the white population and the black slave population, but the blacks were only valued at 3/5 of a white person. Lowering the legal worth of a person based purely on the colour of their skin is about as racist as it gets.


Not exactly.

The infamous Three-Fifths Compromise -- admittedly, one of the darkest moments in our history -- had zero effect on presidential elections, or the working of the Electoral College. Blacks couldn't vote, period, and southern states with a high percentage of blacks had no advantage over northern states with a low percentage of blacks. The votes tallied -- including both the popular vote and the Electoral College vote -- were the results of votes that were actually cast, and by those where were then qualified to vote (i.e. white males who were at least relatively wealthy).

Three-Fifths Compromise itself was unarguably racist -- and one of the most insidious compromises in world history. But it determined Congressional representation, and not presidential election determination. To spare you a boring civics lesson, the Constitution determined that the number of Members of Congress for each state is based on a state's population, and this Compromise counted blacks as 3/5 of a person for Congressional apportionment. Thus, blacks -- and, overwhelmingly, slaves -- were not counted as one state resident (or no state resident), but as 3/5 of a state resident. This nifty compromise -- without which the Constitution would never have been ratified -- avoided even the semblance of recognizing slaves as persons. But it also gave the southern states -- read: slave-holding states -- a highly disproportionate representation in Congress.

This had two main consequences. First, as you point out, it embedded in our national foundational document the concept that blacks/slaves were less than a person. And second, the pro-slavery balance in Congress kept even discussions of ending slavery from ever occurring. As you know, Great abolished slavery throughout its empire in 1833. The U.S. didn't abolish slavery until after we fought a bloody Civil War that resulted in the deaths of 750,000 Americans. While it's oversimplification to name the Three-Fifths Compromise as the sole reason, it certainly played a major role.




Perhaps more to the point, it's not exactly productive to judge a 230-year-old system by the results of one, single election.


I'm not - the last election is what brought the system to my attention, but I understand the college and popular results have been contradictory on more than one occasion. I am a firm believer in the democratic process, and do not approve of our own system, where the national premier is selected through being the head of the largest party in the lower house of Parliament, even if there has not been an actual election - Theresa May became the Prime Minister because her predecessor quit in the aftermath of Brexit, and nobody else stood against her in the campaign to be party leader.

A few thousand people voted her into Parliament, nobody elected her to be PM, and she remained PM after last election even though nearly 60% of those who voted did so for somebody else.


Well, the 2016 election brought the "problems" with the Electoral College system to everyone's attention. And the same thing occurred in the 2000 election. But it's important to understand that in neither these two elections nor the other three elections where the winner did not receive the majority of the popular vote did the results demonstrate that the Electoral College didn't work. All five demonstrated that the Electoral College did work, and it worked exactly as it was designed. It's a fact that Hillary Clinton received the clear majority of the popular votes; it's also a fact that Donald Trump won an even clearer majority of the electoral votes. And that's the way presidents are elected in the U.S., and it has been the way for every election since the first one. In other words, there was nothing even remotely "unfair" about the way Trump won or Clinton lost. To assert that manifests a rather gross ignorance of the way the American presidential election system works, and has worked from the first day. (And I'm not singling you out, since a great many Americans betray this ignorance.)

Now, the OP in this thread discusses potential changes and/or alternatives to the Electoral College system. That's a highly legitimate discussion, and it has, of course, been widely undertaken, both by people in general and, perhaps more important, be legal experts, Constitutional scholars, and political scientists who know what they're talking about and frame their arguments in an historical context. I think the primary question is: Does the Electoral College system manifest the "will of the people" in a greater or lesser way than a popular vote system? If the Electoral College system is flawed, then is a straight popular vote system the best alternative, given its inherent flaws? Or is there some sort of hybrid system that would eliminate the defects of both systems, yet feature the benefits of both systems?

Finally, it's worth noting that neither the U.S. nor the U.K. are a democracy. Though I need a U.K. civics lesson more than you need a U.S. civics lesson, in both systems "the people" do not make laws; "the people" chose the people who make the laws. Yet in both systems, the members of the national legislature (Congress, Parliament) serve, at least in theory, at the will of "the people," and serve only as long as "the people" allow them to serve. Neither system is a pure democracy, and both systems are based on democratic principles. It's true that your system of selecting a national leader is far more arbitrary than ours, but you have the advantage of being able to switch leaders mid-stream, while we have to wait four years.







"Sometimes the best things in life are a hot girl and a cold beer."



Offline Lois

  • Super Freak
  • Burnt at the stake
  • ******
    • Posts: 11,159
    • Woos/Boos: +768/-57
Reply #28 on: September 14, 2018, 08:34:38 PM
It is my understanding that the 3/5ths compromise (that determined representation in Congress) was used to to determine how many electors a state was apportioned.



Offline Levorotatory

  • Deviant
  • ****
    • Posts: 359
    • Woos/Boos: +19/-0
    • Gender: Male
Reply #29 on: September 14, 2018, 09:55:29 PM
...

We have 400 seats in Parliament. Those seats are awarded on a proportional basis.
IE: you got 67% of the popular vote, you get 67% of the seats in Parliament.
Once parliament is elected, THEY choose the president, NOT the public. They could vote for anyone they choose.
Usually it is the current president of the popular party and if they have more than 50% of the seats, they win the election.
Any laws that are passed here require a 2/3rds majority vote as well as any amendments to the constitution.
So any party that wins 67% of the vote can essentially do whatever thy want with the country and the opposing parties may as well not even bother attending parliament.
...
67% of the elected representatives in a proportional system is a substantially higher threshold than you would find in most countries.  In Canada, with 3 parties that normally elect a substantial number of representatives and a handful of others that get significant numbers of votes, support of about 40% of voters is sufficient for a party to claim a majority of seats in the House without need to form any sort of coalition, and a simple majority is all that is required to pass legislation.



Offline IrishGirl

  • Deviant
  • ****
    • Posts: 350
    • Woos/Boos: +13/-6
    • Gender: Female
Reply #30 on: September 14, 2018, 10:39:20 PM
It is my understanding that the 3/5ths compromise (that determined representation in Congress) was used to to determine how many electors a state was apportioned.

It meant that slaves were 3/5ths of a person, which was counted towards representation in congress and the electoral college.  In that small way it did.

But the College wasn't devised because of it.  The college was devised because we are the "United States"  We are not one singular government we are 50 individual governments that make large decisions as one.

And the reason why that is so important is same reason that we have the Bill of Rights, two Houses in congress, SCOTUS, and so many other things.  We came out of a revolution against governments with absolute power over us. 

The system was devised so that those thirteen little governments could over rule the one big government on matters of slavery, of if Burr used his populace connections in New York as a bid for king--as he did, it was made so one part of the government could be overruled if it overstepped its power.

You're simply bringing this all to slavery so you can cry to abolish one of the checks because it didn't work in your favor once or twice in a century.

Well guess what, the system isn't perfect.  NOTHING that is designed to BALANCE is going to be perfect for everyone, it's going to be even not utopian.

You are arguing a revision of the electoral college and American history to push a view that's almost authoritarian.

The main reason Clinton lost was because she ONLY cared about the high vote states and ONLY campaigned there.  That's an election strategy problem not a vast conspiracy

Just another surplus living the American dream


Offline Levorotatory

  • Deviant
  • ****
    • Posts: 359
    • Woos/Boos: +19/-0
    • Gender: Male
Reply #31 on: September 14, 2018, 11:20:18 PM
The electoral college does not function as a check on the power of the president.  Congress and the courts do that.  If the problem is candidates targeting their campaigns to a select group of states rather than the nation as a whole, the winner take all nature of electoral college votes in most states makes that problem worse.  There is no point in trying to win additional votes in states that are already leaning your way, or trying to catch up in states where you are significantly behind.  Instead, the best strategy is to focus on a handful of swing states with close races.  Now you have a national election that is focused on regional issues.  Not a good way to elect someone who is supposed to represent the whole country.



Offline joan1984

  • Burnt at the stake
  • *******
    • Posts: 11,270
    • Woos/Boos: +616/-270
    • Gender: Female
  • Co-POY 2011
Reply #32 on: September 15, 2018, 12:10:19 AM
  If any reformation of Electoral College is warranted, would be open to proportional, rather than winner take all, distribution of State Electoral College votes, as is done in just two (I believe) States today.

  I don't know how one breaks such numbers down, however, and one would think whole votes would be applicable, rather than in 1/1000 of a Electoral Vote for some Third or Fourth Party, or whatever Independent may achieve in one or another States.

Some people are like the 'slinky'. Not really good for much,
but they bring a smile to your face as they fall down stairs.


Offline watcher1

  • POY 2010
  • Burnt at the stake
  • *******
    • Posts: 16,989
    • Woos/Boos: +1722/-57
    • Gender: Male
  • Gentleman Pervert
Reply #33 on: September 15, 2018, 01:43:22 AM



Today there is a new form of demagoguery that the Framers never even dreamed of: The Demagoguery of money. With presidential candidates sitting on campaign war chests containing well over $1 billion dollars, candidates are able to sway votes in new and previously unheard of ways. Any analysis or prescription for change in the way we elect our presidents should take a temporary back seat to this incomparably more pressing and anti-democratic phenomenon.




I agree MissB.  Here in Illinois we have two billionaires running for governor, each pouring millions into their own war chests and both ready to set a record for most amount of money spent for a governorship.

Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds.


Offline IrishGirl

  • Deviant
  • ****
    • Posts: 350
    • Woos/Boos: +13/-6
    • Gender: Female
Reply #34 on: September 15, 2018, 01:59:21 AM
The electoral college does not function as a check on the power of the president.  Congress and the courts do that.  If the problem is candidates targeting their campaigns to a select group of states rather than the nation as a whole, the winner take all nature of electoral college votes in most states makes that problem worse.  There is no point in trying to win additional votes in states that are already leaning your way, or trying to catch up in states where you are significantly behind.  Instead, the best strategy is to focus on a handful of swing states with close races.  Now you have a national election that is focused on regional issues.  Not a good way to elect someone who is supposed to represent the whole country.

For starters, as I mentioned in another thread, Hillary was antagonistic towards the states that were traditionally red.  You really don't win them over by insulting them...and she was running against Trump.

She lost states that voted Obama...twice...while running against Donald Trump.  People want to blame the electoral college, but maybe calling them "deplorable" had a lot to do with that.

And that goes double because a lot of those "deplorables" were in swing states.  

But otherwise, AS I STATED IN THE POST THAT CLEARLY NO ONE READ, the people that drafted it were using it as a check against my home state of Massachusetts, or rather really just Boston and Philly really, that had just dragged a lot of the states into a revolution that most of them didn't want to fight, and Virginia, a heavily populated slave state that places like Connecticut (which was abolitionist from almost the start) didn't want to have populace control over the federal government.

It was a check against populist politics, and people don't like it.  But those kinds of politics gave us Hitler didn't they?  Right now populist politics  would end the First Amendment and would likely outlaw opposition parties...and that is on the left and the right.

As they said, when I posted the links to their rationale that no one read because they would rather go for propaganda...

...they were well aware of the tyranny that came with aristocracies and gendered elites, but they were also well aware of what they called the tyranny of the majority...which is pretty much EXACTLY what the people that are yelling to abolish the electoral college want.

They want to be able to impose the will populace movement over the rest of America.  Which is especially scary, because it's clear that they are willing to silence dissent to do so, especially in academia.

Just another surplus living the American dream


Offline Lois

  • Super Freak
  • Burnt at the stake
  • ******
    • Posts: 11,159
    • Woos/Boos: +768/-57
Reply #35 on: September 15, 2018, 03:22:40 AM
Another interesting article on tne topic:
 http://time.com/4558510/electoral-college-history-slavery/




Offline Levorotatory

  • Deviant
  • ****
    • Posts: 359
    • Woos/Boos: +19/-0
    • Gender: Male
Reply #36 on: September 15, 2018, 03:35:31 AM
The best defense against tyranny of the majority is strong protections of the rights of everyone, including those who disagree with the government of the day or whose views have little public support.  Historically the US constitution has done a good job of that, but the ongoing unhealthy willingness to sacrifice freedom in the name of "national security" and the ever-increasing politicization of the courts is threatening that.

The electoral college votes are allocated on a population basis, so it does nothing to protect the interests of smaller states against those of larger ones (that is what the senate does that by providing equal representation for every state).  What the electoral college does is silence the voice of minority voters by assigning all of most state's electoral votes to one candidate regardless of the actual ratio of support, and force candidates to focus on the issues most important to the most divided states rather than those of the greatest national interest.



Offline Katiebee

  • Shield Maiden POY 2018
  • Burnt at the stake
  • *******
    • Posts: 12,197
    • Woos/Boos: +946/-14
    • Gender: Female
  • Achieving world domination, one body at a time.
Reply #37 on: September 15, 2018, 04:05:41 AM
I am finding your argument to be very obtuse Irishgirl.

There are three kinds of people in the world. Those who can count, and those who can't.


Offline Lois

  • Super Freak
  • Burnt at the stake
  • ******
    • Posts: 11,159
    • Woos/Boos: +768/-57
Reply #38 on: September 15, 2018, 10:13:51 AM
Obtuse is a good word.

Five myths about the electoral college
By George C. Edwards III
November 2, 2012

1. The framers created the electoral college to protect small states.
The delegates to the 1787 Constitutional Convention had a variety of reasons for settling on the electoral college format, but protecting smaller states was not among them. Some delegates feared direct democracy, but that was only one factor in the debate.

Remember what the country looked like in 1787: The important division was between states that relied on slavery and those that didn’t, not between large and small states. A direct election for president did not sit well with most delegates from the slave states, which had large populations but far fewer eligible voters. They gravitated toward the electoral college as a compromise because it was based on population. The convention had agreed to count each slave as three-fifths of a person for the purpose of calculating each state’s allotment of seats in Congress. For Virginia, which had the largest population among the original 13 states, that meant more clout in choosing the president.

The electoral college distorts the political process by providing a huge incentive to visit competitive states, especially large ones with hefty numbers of electoral votes. That’s why Obama and Romney have spent so much time this year in states like Ohio and Florida. In the 2008 general election, Obama and John McCain personally campaigned in only five of the 29 smallest states.

The framers protected the interests of smaller states by creating the Senate, which gives each state two votes regardless of population. There is no need for additional protection. Do we really want a presidency responsive to parochial interests in a system already prone to gridlock? The framers didn’t.

2. The electoral college ensures that the winner has broad support.
Supporters argue that the electoral college format prevents candidates from targeting specific groups and regions, instead forcing them to seek votes across the country. But that’s not the way it has worked in recent presidential contests. Generally, Republicans have tried to stitch together an electoral college majority from the South, Southwest and Rocky Mountain states, while Democrats have relied on the large states on both coasts and the Midwest, leaving certain swing states (hello, Florida!) as perennial battlegrounds.

Any system of electing the president requires some version of broad support, but the electoral college does little to promote that goal. In 2000, George W. Bush lost the popular vote to Al Gore but won in the electoral college. His victory came largely from his support among white men. He did not win majorities among women, blacks, Latinos, urbanites, the young, the old or those with less-than-average income. In short, Bush claimed the White House with the backing of one dominant group, not with broad support.

3. The electoral college preserves stability in our political system by discouraging third parties.
The electoral college offers no guarantee of such “stability” — in fact, history suggests otherwise. The Republican Party was born as a third (or even fourth) party, and it quickly established itself as a major force in the 1856 and 1860 elections. In 1912, Teddy Roosevelt ran as a third-party nominee, and though he didn’t win, he easily bested his former party’s candidate, the Republican incumbent, William Howard Taft.

The electoral college system gives a third-party candidate more opportunities to create mischief than a direct election does. Think about what could happen in a neck-and-neck contest: If a third-party nominee won enough states to prevent either major-party candidate from winning the 270 electoral votes needed for a majority, the House of Representatives would decide the outcome. Each state delegation would have one vote; Vermont and Wyoming would count the same as Texas and New York. That’s hardly a recipe for stability.

In addition, under the electoral college, a third party can tip the balance in a closely contested state. In 2000, Ralph Nader siphoned votes away from Gore in Florida. Had Nader not run, Gore could have won the election.

Direct elections, especially those without a runoff, prevent such problems. Coming in third or fourth would gain a party no leverage in the selection of the president.

4. In direct elections, candidates would campaign only in large cities.
Under any system, candidates try to spend their time in places where they can reach the most voters. But in a direct election, with every vote counting equally, candidates would have an incentive to appeal to voters everywhere, not just those in swing states. Because the price of advertising is mainly a function of market size, it does not cost more to reach 10,000 voters in Wyoming than it does to reach 10,000 voters in New York or Los Angeles.

It’s the electoral college that shortchanges voters. Because it makes no sense for candidates to spend time or money in states they either cannot win or are certain to win, thriving cities such as Atlanta, San Francisco and El Paso get no love from White House hopefuls.

Making every vote count in every state would have other benefits. It would stimulate party-building efforts and increase turnout. People are more likely to cast a ballot if they think their vote matters.

5. Electors must vote for the candidate who wins their state.
In theory, this is true. In practice, however, electors may vote for whomever they please, and on rare occasions, they do. In a tight election, such behavior might deny either candidate a majority of the electoral vote and throw the election into the House of Representatives.

For generations, pollsters have found that a clear majority of Americans support direct election of the president. The longer we cling to the electoral college, the longer we’ll have presidential campaigns that leave large numbers of voters feeling left out, along with a system that distorts the public’s preferences.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-the-electoral-college/2012/11/02/2d45c526-1f85-11e2-afca-58c2f5789c5d_story.html?utm_term=.a3a5748450b4



Offline MissBarbara

  • Burnt at the stake
  • *******
    • Posts: 16,203
    • Woos/Boos: +3194/-41
    • Gender: Female
Reply #39 on: September 15, 2018, 05:44:07 PM

But the College wasn't devised because of it.  The college was devised because we are the "United States"  We are not one singular government we are 50 individual governments that make large decisions as one.


Actually, we're "The United States." It may seem like a microscopic difference, but it's actually huge: We decidedly are not "50 individual governments that make large decisions as one." We are one nation where sovereignty rests not in the states -- as it did before the Constitution was ratified -- but in the people. In terms of the Electoral College the states -- individually or collectively -- are little more than administrative districts.



The system was devised so that those thirteen little governments could over rule the one big government on matters of slavery, of if Burr used his populace connections in New York as a bid for king--as he did, it was made so one part of the government could be overruled if it overstepped its power.


Same mistake. The system wasn't devised so "those thirteen little governments" could overrule the federal government: It was designed to the people could overrule the federal government.






"Sometimes the best things in life are a hot girl and a cold beer."