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Offline Lois

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Reply #180 on: June 27, 2018, 02:19:35 AM
 No technically about it, Lois, and if at that time there was compliance between the Nation he fled, and the United States, perhaps you may have grown up speaking yet another language, besides whatever ones you know today.

  As to breaking laws for reasons of personal 'necessity' as you described in a prior post, while one may not be punished for such law breaking with the usual sentence(s), the breaking of the law comes with consequences, and the person who breaks such laws, damages another's property by breaking it during a weather event, or in some other manner abuses another's property, is to be held liable to make that owner 'whole'. If not you, then who will make that owner 'whole'?



You are wrong as usual.  Criminals were not excluded until 1882 (see Immigration Act of 1882), and my great-great grandfather arrived in the 1860's.  And you do know that Virginia started as a penal colony don't you?

And of course a person was expected to leave the cabin better than they found it.  That goes without saying.

Now let's talk about the benefits of migrant workers under the TPA program.  (Temporary Protected Status)  They can work legally and pay taxes.  It is for a fixed period of time so that we can get a good idea of the quality of person that is here.  After, the situation in their country is cleared up we can decide if we want them to stay or go back home.  People that have contributed or are/have children enrolled in college can stay, those that have not made a go of it can be asked to leave.

But of course I suspect this is not really the issue.  You use the law as an excuse.  In your mind "undesirables" are non-whites. I am sad for you really.



Offline Lois

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Reply #181 on: June 27, 2018, 03:26:10 AM
Another interesting fact is that we essentially had open borders until 1924.  The Immigration Act of 1924 set quotas on people who were Jewish, Italian and Eastern Europeans.  There were no quotas on Latin Americans (deemed "white" like native Americans) or Africans until 1965.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 03:33:46 AM by Lois »



Offline Athos_131

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Reply #182 on: June 28, 2018, 12:22:10 AM

#BlackLivesMatter
Arrest The Cops Who Killed Breonna Taylor

#BanTheNaziFromKB


Offline joan1984

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Reply #183 on: June 28, 2018, 12:55:00 AM
  Another Judge to be stepped on like an ant, I expect.  His/her opinion is just that, an opinion. Must we wait another year for SCOTUS to swat this down, or will the President simply ignore this Judge, and do what he must to protect the Nation. We shall see, I suppose.

Some people are like the 'slinky'. Not really good for much,
but they bring a smile to your face as they fall down stairs.


Offline Athos_131

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Reply #184 on: June 28, 2018, 01:30:43 AM
  Another Judge to be stepped on like an ant, I expect. 

The law is only alright when it suits you, eh?

#Resist

#BlackLivesMatter
Arrest The Cops Who Killed Breonna Taylor

#BanTheNaziFromKB


Offline Lois

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Reply #185 on: June 29, 2018, 07:27:58 AM
  Another Judge to be stepped on like an ant, I expect.  His/her opinion is just that, an opinion. Must we wait another year for SCOTUS to swat this down, or will the President simply ignore this Judge, and do what he must to protect the Nation. We shall see, I suppose.

I thought you were against child abuse and you seemed relieved when you first found out Trump had reversed his policy.   

My ex lost his mom to cancer when he was 10.  The feelings of abandonment made it impossible to make commitments to partners.  He was always afraid of being abandoned again.  (His fears became a self-fulfilling prophesy when he finally drove me away.)

Then there is Trump, who was abandoned by his mother when she became very sick.  She did not intentionally abandon him, but that is how children view such separations. It causes irreparable harm.  Possibly Trump would not now be a malignant narcissist if his mother had stayed healthy and able to guide him.

Such abandonment issues leads to numerous mental health problems and the USA is liable for any such problems that may develop.  Are you prepared to pay for these problems with your tax dollars? 



Offline joan1984

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Reply #186 on: June 29, 2018, 02:26:13 PM
  Sorry about your ex, and the others you noted, Lois. My comment regarding the latest "Judge" to attempt to override a President's EO, is just that. Gravitas is what is missing in the previous such attempts, swatted down just days ago by SCOTUS, and the left is not listening. This order(s) from a Judge will also need to be swatted down.

  Consequences, monetary consequences, are needed for those who choose to entangle our Courts for the purpose of delay, or for more nefarious purposes.
What any of this has to do with anyone's Mother is beyond me. This matter is one of law, not more complicated than that.

  As Vice President Pence remarked in Central America this week, "If you cannot come to the US LEGALLY, then do not come." The places of origin for many recent border jumpers, and for legitimate asylum seekers, have issues when compared to many other places. There is no blanket invitation for anyone to come here, when there are problems with their country/nation of origin.

Some people are like the 'slinky'. Not really good for much,
but they bring a smile to your face as they fall down stairs.


Offline Lois

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Reply #187 on: June 29, 2018, 04:46:06 PM
Ah, but we are the cause of those problems.  So yes, we do have a responsibility.  There are also laws concerning asylum seekers that we are not following.  So what happens if we violated the law first?



Offline joan1984

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Reply #188 on: June 29, 2018, 05:33:53 PM
  People all over the world have issues, some with their mates, some with their governments, some with their neighbors. It simply is not our problem, not our role to relieve whatever calamity is causing them angst.

  As to law breaking, why the "blame America first" attitude? If you wish to help someone in a far away country, I am sure you can find a way to donate to whatever causes are out there. Bringing such troubles and people here should not be a priority at all, let alone doing so outside the standard procedures for such actions on Asylum, Immigration, Visas and so forth.

  Some large portion of Americans are pleased to see current, and future more strict border control and defense, including the majority of Republicans, and Democrats, and unaffiliated eligible and registered voters. For good reasons.

  Support people you know, and give them assistance as you are able, be they legal or illegal, as you see fit. Encouraging law breaking of any kind is not a well thought out strategy in general, in my opinion, and I may only control my actions, and work to see that taxpayer funding is limited to legal activities in general, especially when it comes to border and immigration control.

  I would much rather see wages addressed for those tasks where historically it is difficult to find willing American citizens to hire, thus the demand for low skill workers from abroad, who are willing to perform such tasks.

  Seems to me that able bodied people who wish to earn their way, could be trained and transported to where the work exists, and I would include parolees in such a group, who often have difficulties finding employment at home.

  Individuals can earn a fair wage, get on their own feet, send a portion of the wages earned to a bank account to accumulate, or to family members who will appreciate the individual's efforts to repay past loans or such, and gain work experience, resume enhancing references from the employers, and resume a lawful lifestyle in the process.


Ah, but we are the cause of those problems.  So yes, we do have a responsibility.  There are also laws concerning asylum seekers that we are not following.  So what happens if we violated the law first?

Some people are like the 'slinky'. Not really good for much,
but they bring a smile to your face as they fall down stairs.


Offline Lois

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Reply #189 on: June 29, 2018, 11:53:16 PM
I don't have a blame America first attitude.  We simply have different values.  I believe in taking responsibility.

Children are being harmed for the their parents crime of seeking asylum, which is not a crime!

Trump's policies are immoral and cruel.

This does not seem to bother you.



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Reply #190 on: June 30, 2018, 12:43:15 AM
GOOD THING THIS ISN"T 1939............!!!

 :o

Love,
Liz



Offline joan1984

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Reply #191 on: June 30, 2018, 01:24:45 AM
People seeking to better their financial opportunity, who drag children with them, deprive their children of savings by paying criminals to guide/transport them, put their daughters on birth control, expecting rape of children on the journey, are abusing children, and are not worthy of becoming Americans.

The people are the ones with some common sense missing, and those leftists, Democrat lawyers and activists, encouraging, coaching these folks are doing all a disservice, in the name of 'the children'. Criminal conspiracy, willingness, planning to cross the border illegally if anything gets in their way, such as a over run port of entry, these folks are not worthy due to their attitude and actions.

Aliens, save your money, get Visas, buy plane tickets, visit the American Embassy to tell them what you bring to the table, why America needs you.
Better, stay home, or closer to home, to make your future where you speak the language, know the governments, and have a better chance.

We do not need people who are unskilled, uneducated, and planning on taking more than they can possibly contribute. Stay out. Get out.

Merit? Be prepared to explain why you merit being an American. Apply for the position, in the preferred manner(s), and stop costing the US Billions annually just to imprison you and turn you around.

We need to CUT foreign aid to Central America, and to Mexico, by the amount we now forecast annually for handling the trespassers they allow to come here.
Not one dime, pay America first.

Build The Wall.
Deport Them All.


I don't have a blame America first attitude.  We simply have different values.  I believe in taking responsibility.

Children are being harmed for the their parents crime of seeking asylum, which is not a crime!

Trump's policies are immoral and cruel.

This does not seem to bother you.

Some people are like the 'slinky'. Not really good for much,
but they bring a smile to your face as they fall down stairs.


Offline ChrisHailey

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Reply #192 on: June 30, 2018, 02:11:55 AM
will the President simply ignore this Judge, and do what he must to protect the Nation.

Good God, we're now casually talking about the president ignoring the courts, to persue an immoral policy that exists to combat a completely made-up "crisis."

Ignoring the courts, manufacturing crises, this is whst dictators do.

What the hell happened to our country?
« Last Edit: June 30, 2018, 02:14:06 AM by ChrisHailey »

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Reply #193 on: June 30, 2018, 02:15:18 AM
Oh, Joan, sie Sind so vorhersehbar.

There are three kinds of people in the world. Those who can count, and those who can't.


Offline Lois

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Reply #194 on: June 30, 2018, 02:17:23 AM
The United States has long pursued policies that has destabilized Central America and led to high crime.  The M-13 gang originated in the United States and spread to El Salvador only when we deported members there.

I am for aid to El Salvador to invest in education and other incentives to bring the crime rate down.  We need to fight the root cause of crime and not just fight the symptom.

As you may know, I spent time in El Salvador in 1985 and spoke with many people.
 Just trying to help the poor by giving them clothes and job training was considered a subversive act that could lead to a visit by the death squads.  Some of the people I spoke with did not survive the year.


Time for a US Apology to El Salvador
By Raymond Bonner

Over the ages, the United States has routinely intervened in Latin America, overthrowing left-wing governments and propping up right-wing dictators. President Obama pressed a reset button of sorts last month when he traveled to Cuba and Argentina. Now it’s time for him to visit a Latin America country that is geographically smallest but where Washington’s footprint is large and the stain of intervention perhaps greatest—El Salvador.

In Argentina, on the 40th anniversary of a military coup that ushered in that country’s “dirty war,” President Obama said it was time for the United States to reflect on its policies during those “dark days.” In the name of fighting communism, the Argentine government hunted down, tortured, and killed suspected leftists—sometimes throwing their bodies out of helicopters into the sea. “We’ve been slow to speak out for human rights and that was the case here,” Obama said.

That failure to speak out looks benign in contrast to the active role Washington played in the “dirty war” in El Salvador in the 1980s, which pitted a right-wing government against Marxist guerrillas. The United States sent military advisers to help the Salvadoran military fight its dirty war, as well as hundreds of millions of dollars in economic and military aid.

In Argentina, the security forces killed some 30,000 civilians. In El Salvador, more than 75,000 lost their lives during the civil war, which lasted from 1980 until the 1992 peace agreement. The guerrillas committed atrocities, but the United Nations Truth Commission, established as part of the accord, found that more than 85 percent of the killings, kidnappings, and torture had been the work of government forces, which included paramilitaries, death squads, and army units trained by the United States.

The United States went well beyond remaining largely silent in the face of human-rights abuses in El Salvador. The State Department and White House often sought to cover up the brutality, to protect the perpetrators of even the most heinous crimes.

In March of 1980, the much beloved and respected Archbishop Oscar Arnulfo Romero was murdered. A voice for the poor and repressed, Romero, in his final Sunday sermon, had issued a plea to the country’s military junta that rings through the ages: “In the name of God, in the name of this suffering people whose cries rise to heaven more loudly each day, I implore you, I beg you, I order you in the name of God: stop the repression.” The next day, he was cut down by a single bullet while he was saying a private mass. (In 2015, Pope Francis declared that Romero died a martyr, the final step before sainthood.)

Eight months after the assassination, a military informant gave the US embassy in El Salvador evidence that it had been plotted by Roberto D’Aubuisson, a charismatic and notorious right-wing leader. D’Aubuisson had presided over a meeting in which soldiers drew lots for the right to kill the archbishop, the informant said. While any number of right-wing death squads might have wanted to kill Romero, only a few, like D’Aubuisson’s, were “fanatical and daring” enough to actually do it, the CIA concluded in a report for the White House.

Yet, D’Aubuisson continued to be welcomed at the US embassy in El Salvador, and when Elliott Abrams, the State Department’s point man on Central America during the Reagan administration, testified before Congress, he said he would not consider D’Aubuisson an extremist. “You would have to be engaged in murder,” Abrams said, before he would call him an extremist. But D’Aubuisson was engaged in murder, and Washington knew it. (He died of throat cancer in 1992, at the age of 48. Abrams was convicted in 1991 of misleading Congress about the shipment of arms to the anti-Sandinista forces in Nicaragua, the so-called “Iran/Contra” affair. He was pardoned by President George H.W. Bush, later served as special adviser to President George W. Bush on democracy and human rights, and is now a foreign-policy adviser to GOP presidential candidate Ted Cruz.)

No act of barbarism is more emblematic of the deceit that marked Washington’s policy in El Salvador in the 1980s than the sexual assault and murder of four US churchwomen—three Roman Catholic nuns and a lay missionary—in December 1980, a month after Ronald Reagan was elected president.

The American ambassador, Robert White, who had been appointed by President Jimmy Carter, knew immediately that the Salvadoran military was responsible—even if he didn’t have the names of the perpetrators—but that was not what the incoming administration wanted to hear.

One of Reagan’s top foreign-policy advisers, Jeane Kirkpatrick, when asked if she thought the government had been involved, said, “The answer is unequivocal. No, I don’t think the government was responsible.” She then sought to besmirch the women. “The nuns were not just nuns,” she told The Tampa Tribune. “The nuns were also political activists,” with a leftist political coalition (Kirkpatrick died in 2006).

In Argentina, President Obama praised two American diplomats, Tex Harris and Patt Derian, for their commitment to documenting the human-rights abuses in Argentina.

Two American diplomats in El Salvador deserve similar presidential recognition. Ambassador White, a career diplomat, lost his job and was forced out of the foreign service by Secretary of State Alexander Haig when he refused to participate in a cover-up of the Salvadoran military’s involvement in the murder of the American churchwomen. Haig told a congressional committee that the women may have been trying to run a roadblock when they were killed (Haig died in 2010; White died in 2015).

At considerable risk to his career and his life, a junior diplomat in the US embassy, H. Carl Gettinger, wasn’t deterred by the chicanery in Washington and carried out his own investigation. It was Gettinger who had learned from the Salvadoran military informant about D’Aubuisson’s role in the assassination of Archbishop Romero, and he turned to the man, an army lieutenant, to help him solve the churchwomen’s case. The lieutenant, who had so much blood on his own hands during the dirty war that Gettinger dubbed him “Killer,” gave Gettinger, and the United States, the name of the sergeant who led the operation and that of four other soldiers who had participated, a crime that senior Salvadoran military commanders had successfully covered up until then (the men were convicted in 1984).

“Carl is an unsung hero,” Carol Doerflein, who was the assistant public affairs officer in the US embassy in El Salvador at the time, told me recently.

One year after the churchwomen were murdered, one of the worst massacres in modern Latin American history occurred when soldiers from the US-trained Atlacatl Battalion carried out an operation in the mountainous region of northeastern El Salvador. Altogether more than 700 men, women, and children were killed in El Mozote and surrounding villages.

The Reagan administration steadfastly denied there had been a massacre by government troops. Reports of the massacre, by myself in The New York Times and Alma Guillermoprieto in The Washington Post, were dismissed by administration officials and their right-wing supporters as “guerrilla propaganda.”

But cables and documents declassified by the Clinton administration in the early 1990s—as well as the findings of the UN Truth Commission—have confirmed the massacre in grisly detail. “As many as several hundred men, women and children were allegedly massacred by the Atlacatl Battalion during the December 10-13, 1981, El Salvadoran Armed Forces (ESAF) offensive,” the State Department wrote in a secret eight-page report to the Truth Commission. The commission removed the “allegedly.” On the morning after arriving in the area, according to the commission, the soldiers had “proceeded to interrogate, torture and execute the men.… Around noon, they began taking out the women in groups, separating them from their children and machine-gunning them. Finally, they killed the children.”

In 2012, on the 20th anniversary of the civil war’s end, El Salvador’s president, Mauricio Funes, went to El Mozote to apologize. “For this massacre, for the abhorrent violations of human rights and the abuses perpetrated in the name of the Salvadoran state, I ask forgiveness of the families of the victims,” he said, wiping away tears. He laid flowers on the monument that had been erected.

In Argentina, Obama tossed white roses into the water at a memorial to the victims of that country’s dirty war. No US official, not even a mid-level one, has ever visited the monument at El Mozote or apologized or expressed regrets about that massacre or, more broadly, for Washington’s active role in funding and encouraging El Salvador’s dirty war.

https://www.thenation.com/article/time-for-a-us-apology-to-el-salvador/



Offline ChrisHailey

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Reply #195 on: June 30, 2018, 02:29:54 AM
We have now had two of our last three presidents, both Republicans, who failed to win the popular vote. Rather than recognizing that winning with a minority of the vote gave them a special responsibility to act with regard for the wishes of the majority of voters, they both behaved like partisan idiots, the first one launching a disastrous and completely unnecessary war that the public despised, and the second one acting like a tin-pot dictator whose brain and mouth are disconnected. And his supporters (a minorty of voters, let us remember) seem to think it's just fine that their guy is a moron, because trolling the libtards for the lulz is what it means to be a "patriot" these days.


Our democracy is a failure. Stick a fork in it, it's done. We best get used to living in a country that is increasingly an autocratic kleptocracy, because Republicans don't give a shit and there's nothing the rest of us can do.

:(
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Reply #196 on: July 01, 2018, 04:58:40 PM
Yesterday (Saturday) I road the subway into Washington DC to spend the day with my girlfriend, a couple nice meals and seeing museums in between.  On the ride in we talked with some people going to the latest protest of Trump policies and saw the main protest on the mall later in the day.  It seems there’s a fair number of people that object to putting children and babies in prison camps.



Offline joan1984

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Reply #197 on: July 01, 2018, 05:33:56 PM
 As we all know, or should know, including the weekend's DC protestors, detaining minor aliens is not only legal, is practiced daily and has been for some time, in the case of would be asylum seekers who arrive with minors.

  These asylum seekers have broken no laws, and have complicated their own lives by traveling thousands of miles over some time, to personally present at a Port of Entry to the United States. The adult aliens require vetting, identity, and criminal background search results, as well the minor aliens.

  Some research about vaccines confirmed or suspected the minor's and adults have received, what, when, records for such if available, are important so as to preclude health issues for these individuals, while being detained, and in the case the individual's asylum cases have merit, and will be adjudicated, prior to the placement of such individuals and families.

  While release to the United States population is not forthcoming, at least in the near future, legal detention arrangements are sought and provided, and such provisions are not 'prison camps', but detention at the request of the seeker of asylum, while consideration of their case proceeds. Willing aliens seeking further custody by the United States is a different status, than criminal law breakers.

  Those who enter the United States without invite or Visa are breaking laws. In recent days, by Executive Order, President Trump ordered families caught entering the United States at and near the border, will not be separated, which says the criminal adult will be detained, alongside if no other crimes are the case, their families, as they await deportation orders.

  Such criminal alien adults, and minor family members, should the alien ask for asylum, are processed through the criminal trial, adjudicated, and then the asylum case follows, with all detained until further status is obtained. The family is deported as a unit, unless there is good reason not to rejoin them, in which case deported minors will follow deported adults to their home nations.
--------------

  I noted in a Drudge Report comment last week that the alien Mom whose daughter was pictured on the cover of Time Magazine, had rejoined with her husband, the girls father, in El Salvador, and they have now been reunited with their alien minor daughter in El Salvador. So there is some progress in getting all the various parts rejoined.

  This non-issue, resolved by President Trump's E.O. keeping detained families together, is too good an issue for some, thus the issue is kept alive via such organized protestors, seeking to build voter interest among Democrats.

Some people are like the 'slinky'. Not really good for much,
but they bring a smile to your face as they fall down stairs.


Offline Lois

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Reply #198 on: July 01, 2018, 10:12:05 PM
The majority of Americans believe the United States should provide refuge for people fleeing in fear for their lives.

When will Trump realize that he has a responsibility to all Americans and not just the 24% of the eligible voters that voted for him?



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Reply #199 on: July 01, 2018, 10:36:41 PM
Actually, your numbers are dead wrong, and the way you present the question is not the reality of what is happening when our border is assaulted by those who would enter the US, dragging along minor family members or other minors, in hoped of taking American jobs and receiving the largess of this Nation.

80% of Americans believe illegal aliens should be turned over for deportation, including California Hispanic legal immigrants. All wish to see children treated with respect, prior to shipping their ass back to where they came from, true.

Some of these persons 'fleeing death from their home nations' have been shipped back forthwith, and seem to be surviving the situation quite well, maybe saving up money they could use to educate their children, from what ever job they may have, to pay some future criminal smuggler for another try.

These poor citizens of _____ (not here), are back to their miserable lives in whatever shack they came from, and WE are out the millions/billions of dollars it cost over time to keep them from infiltrating our border, house them, defend against the Democrat mobs in the streets who agitators think can sway the November election results ... collusion with Central American Sh*thole Countries?... anyway, they are quite comfortable, still wearing the solar blankets stocked by the Obama Administration for just this purpose.

Thousands more of their countrymen/countrywomen/countrygirls/countryboys are right behind them, being flown apparently, no old creaky schoolbusses for the one way trip BACK, paid for by Uncle Sam, which is you, your tax dollars.

Saving up $7000 from their miserable earnings must hurt, so hopefully they will remain in their misery, the same as all their neighbors, and not bother us again with such tripe as whatever excuses they floated this time, which were quickly recognized as B.S. and they were shown the door, well fed/clothed...

Hope they got some vaccinations while they were here, and maybe will live through the next plague, revolution, or whatever finds its way to them.

For $7000 could probably get a partnership Chic-Fil-A franchise, in Bumfuck, El Salvador (location, location), or the equivalent, or maybe open a Tattoo Parlor, or whatever else one does in such places. In any event, we are done with this batch for now, and are sending the rest of them right behind them.

Vice President Pence has been visiting Central America to impress upon them that 'The Exodus Must End', and hopefully got the point drilled through the hard heads of whoever he met with there, so we do not need to send American boots on the ground to help them get the message.

Lots of troops in Germany we could bring back closer to home, instead of them having CooCoo Clock Wine Shopping on weekends there, can stop supporting the German economy with our troops, and turn over the jobs to EU forces.


The majority of Americans believe the United States should provide refuge for people fleeing in fear for their lives.

When will Trump realize that he has a responsibility to all Americans and not just the 24% of the eligible voters that voted for him?

Some people are like the 'slinky'. Not really good for much,
but they bring a smile to your face as they fall down stairs.