#MeToo’ism and the age of sexual victimization.

[MissBarbara]

I think there is a difference between inappropriate behavior and outright sexual assault. threats or coercion. I've received looks and pats on the ass, but they never felt threatening so it was no big deal.  And then I've been in situations when I was terrified for my life.

To me that's the line between assault  "An assault is carried out by a threat of bodily harm coupled with an apparent, present ability to cause the harm" and other forms of sexual harassment.  I doubt the women groped by Bush, Sr., felt in fear for their lives, but rather "damn this is one creepy old guy."

As for Trump's victims we have the accounts of his victims and his own words telling us how he tried to force himself on women. The same is true concerning some of the accounts of the girls assaulted by Moore, even if we don't factor in the fact they were underaged.

And I'm tired of the Republican fallback for their bad deeds of pointing at a Democrat and saying "They did it too!"  Forget the fact they are often trying to draw a false equivalency, two wrongs still don't make a right.

I agree, and that's one of the main points I was trying to make in my post above, about trying to make that obscure line as clear as possible.

Not only are work and social situations markedly different, but "inappropriate" and "criminal assault" are also markedly different.

For example, a couple are watching a movie together. He puts his arm around her, and she lets it stay there. His hand then slowly moves to her breast, and she politely but firmly pushes it off. I wouldn't blame the guy for trying, but I would blame him if he tried it again.

Or another example. A partner at a law firm and a rising younger attorney are working together late in the evening. They're sitting next to each other, and the partner puts his hand on the younger attorney's thigh. She's instantly faced with a dilemma: Her first thought is to push his hand off, or move to another place; her immediate second thought is if I want to make partner some day, perhaps I should let him keep it there.

In the first example (and in the examples listed by Merovingian and others above), it's just "guys being guys." In the second example, there's a power dynamic at work the changes the situation completely.

And you're spot on: "They did it too!" is a perfect translation of the "tu quoque" fallacy.

[_priapism]

When I (used to) go out clubbing, why would I put on makeup, spend time curling my hair, putting on my bright red lipstick, wear that low cut v-neck top, wear a shorter than normal skirt?   Obviously I would do it to make myself look nice.   But for what reason?   I wanted to make myself look attractive.   While a lot of women might have an issue with that, that's what I did.  That's what my friends did.  We were trying to make ourselves look attractive to the boys.  I'm sure some are reading this and are disagreeing with me, or rolling their eyes.  

This is a point that cannot be made often enough.  Dressing in a sexy way, wearing makeup or heels... These ARE NOT an invitation to be raped or sexually harassed.  Women dress this way to feel good, NOT to be bothered, molested, or raped.  It’s not an invitation.  It’s not a “Please rape me” sign around their necks.  “Look at her... she’s just asking for it.”  No.  She’s not asking for anything.  What is your fucking problem?

[Jed_]

Often the difference between male behaviors that are viewed by girls as either charming or creepy, are whether or not the girl finds him attractive.  And even then the persistent creep can wear a girl down.  I only know that from girls telling me.  Once rejected, I stopped.  But if a creep gets some validation of their behavior, they are unlikely to ever stop.

[JulesVern]

My favorite take on the subject.

http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/sexual-harassment/2751966?snl=1

Sorry about the preceding ad.

More seriously, I definitely agree with the comments differentiating between workplace behavior and other situations. Not that there is ever an appropriate place for the things that Louis C.K. admitted to doing. That being said, I do have a problem with is punishing someone for unsubstantiated claims. That is no different than a lynch mob hanging someone for being suspected of a crime.

I personally have met a number of times one of the celebrities who has been recently accused of doing something inappropriate and while he isn't a friend of mine, he is a friend of one of my friends. And as that friend said when we talked about it, what he has been accused of is so out of character it is at best difficult to believe. Especially considering the prevailing attitudes at the time it supposedly happened.

Which leads to my next point. So many of these accusations are for events that occurred quite some time ago. We know for a fact that people's memories are quite malleable and recollection of events change over time. Not to mention that attitudes of what is acceptable also change.

[Athos_131]

Save Your Apologies: Here’s What Women Need From Men Right Now

#Resist

[Athos_131]

How to Identify Workplace Sexual Harassment When You See It

#Resist

[MissBarbara]

I was sexually harassed at the bus stop in Junior high by girls, in high school, and on the job by more than one woman.  Of course, what self-respecting male is going to tell anyone that a couple of 8th grade girls held him down and took his clothes off when he was 12 years old, that some girl ground her butt up against him in the cafeteria lunch line just for kicks (would you call that appropriate? I should have grabbed her and had at it), that a couple of women have done the same with their own butts and cleavage on the job?  All of these experiences I would label sexual harassment, but where was someone with a penis going to go.  Only females are allowed to be victims, and they are allowed to suddenly remember, to change their minds, and to conveniently think of a tryst they once had with so and so way back when she was young and innocent and he was not so famous and she has her own version of the events....  need I go on?  

He is a man, he is obviously a pig, and all he ever thinks about is sex sex sex and he will do anything to get it...

And so let us create an atmosphere where accusations get sprayed around like cheap perfume and the scent is so pungent that it poisons everything it touches and men cannot defend themselves against charges because one cannot win in the court of public opinion.  The press has already lost you your current job and the job after that and even if you are cleared of every change, your name will be tainted...

Throughout the years, I have had my share of unwelcome advances from women here and there, only how would these women know their advances were welcome or not unless they tried and received a response?  I have never been as bold as my female counterparts, so all I can say is... you dirty, filthy pig slut women!

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this topic. A couple of questions relating to what you wrote here:

* Are you aware that there's a distinct difference between inappropriate behavior -- or "unwelcome advances" -- and sexual harassment?

* Do you really think hijinks carried out by 12-year-olds qualifies as "sexual harassment"?

* Were the women who ground "their own butts and cleavage on the job" in a position of authority over you? Did their doing so demand a response from you that, had you refused, would have gotten you fired from your job?

* Are you aware that in this thread and several other parallel threads on this board, only men have made assertions like "all men are pigs," while women have refrained from such obviously untrue labels?

* Do you honestly equate the severity of a 12-year-old girl "grinding her butt up against a 12-year-old boy in the cafeteria lunch line just for kicks" and a 32-year-old man in a position of authority sexually assaulting a 14-year-old girl?

* Is a woman who is bold in making sexual advances to a man her age really a "dirty, filthy pig slut woman"?

* Does the fact that there has been times when women have falsely accused men of sexual harassment or unwanted sexual advances mean that all women accusing men of sexual harassment or unwanted sexual advances are lying?

* Finally, are you even hazily aware that the reason why sexual harassment or unwanted sexual advances by men toward women is such a pervasive problem is because far too many men believe it's appropriate to respond to a woman by "grabbing her and having at it"?

To head off you accusations of my accusing you of things you never said, or twisting your words around or taking them out of context, please note that I only responded to specific things you said in this post, and not what I think you think.

[Levorotatory]

...
* Are you aware that there's a distinct difference between inappropriate behavior -- or "unwelcome advances" -- and sexual harassment?

* Do you really think hijinks carried out by 23-year-olds qualifies as "sexual harassment"?
...

I am assuming you meant 12 or 13 (Grade 8 ) and not 23.  I'd agree that the behavior described (forcibly stripping someone at a bus stop) isn't harassment, it's assault. 

Is the age of the alleged perpetrators important?  Absolutely.  Youth crime is treated differently than adult crime for good reasons. 

Is the gender of the alleged perpetrators important?  It shouldn't be, but I suspect that reactions would have been different if the gender roles had been reversed.


As for everything else described, I would agree that one-time inappropriate behavior does not constitute harassment, though it would be harassment if it was part of an ongoing pattern of behavior.  Again though, would reactions have been different if gender roles were reversed?  If so, there is a problem.

[Athos_131]

When Women Stand Up Against Harassers in the Newsroom

#Resist

[_priapism]

[Katiebee]

@pervertedneight I sympathize with your experience. I would characterize your experiences as bullying. Yes there was obvious sexual misconduct performed. Those were power plays, and they sexual content was the tool.

Sexual harassment is a continued behavior, one that places the victim in fear or stress constantly. Sexual assault, which both of your experiences could possibly be characterized as is the sexual contact that is unwanted and not consensual.

You were humilitated and taken advantage of. That is not to say that your experience was not sever or serious. It is of a different type than what most people consider under this topic.

Women face the specter of bodily harm, including possible death, loss of job, or unwanted pregnancy.

You have an inkling of how it may feel to a woman who has an attacker forcing his way upon her. Welcome to our club.

[Elizabeth]

GOODBYE MATT LAUER......TIME TO FIND A NEW JOB........"FIRED"........

Love,
Liz

[Katiebee]

Garrison Keeler, too.

[watcher1]

Garrison Keeler, too.

So Lake Wobegone may have to change its name to Lake Woe-begone. I was surprised when I heard today that NPR fired Garrison Keiller for inappropriate behavior.  Give some people power and it goes to their head(s). Ugh

[_priapism]

Oh, motherfucker, you think I made it all up, do you, you piece of shit?  Is that how you normally react when someone relates a personal story from their past.  I pity anyone in your personal life who might consider you a friend. 
What is it that you find so hard to come to grips with about what I have said here?

I could believe any one of the events you've described, but you paint a picture of a man continuously objectified by attractive women throughout his life, while always powerless to do anything about it. It's an adolescent fantasy, or a poorly conceived fake story to support a point. At best, and giving full benefit of the doubt, you're delusional and interpret innocent actions as intentionally provocative, at least in some cases.

Or he’s a douchebag.

[Lois]

I prefer to take people at face value and not assume everyone is lying.  That is unless, after reading posts over time I see inconsistencies in their stories that lead me to believe the truth varies with that person.

I see no reason not to believe PN's account.  And if he felt violated then he was violated.  There were three girls that used to harass my brother in similar fashion.  They did it to set him off and it worked every time. He once put his fist through a movie theatre window after they took his shirt and would not give it back.  The police were called and the girls disappeared leaving my parents to pay for the damage.

Kids can be real shits.  They can be very mean to others.  So keep an eye on your kids if you have any and don't allow them to bully others!

[MissBarbara]

Kids can be real shits.  They can be very mean to others.  So keep an eye on your kids if you have any and don't allow them to bully others!

I agree.

However -- given the topic of this thread -- a line needs to be drawn between sexual harassment/sexual assault and bullying. Both can be equally pernicious, and both can have long-lasting, even permanent effects on the victim. But in terms of discussing the crisis at hand, and, more to the point, seeking effective solutions to solve the problem, conflating the two only serves to obscure the problem, and keep real solutions form being found and put into effect.

[_priapism]

As the OP, the topic of this thread is the sexual harassment and victimization of women.  Leave it to PN to make it about himself, and derail the thread with a debate about a neighborhood girl putting her hand in his pants (real life stories about childhood sexual activities, another no-no).  As I have observed in threads about race relations and intermarriage, the kneeling controversy, Harvey Weinstein, the Rock N Roll Hall of Fame, and elsewhere, PN has a very self centric viewpoint, where everyone else’s comments and experiences are only valid if they correspond with his own.  I’d call him a troll, but I don’t think that is his intent.  He’s likely just a grumpy old man.  

[MissBarbara]

On another board I frequent, I found this post under the topic, "Do you agree with Garrison Keillor's assertion that the USA is currently in the "grip of a mania" with the almost daily reveals and firings of well-known male figures?"

I thought the answer was very concise, insightful, and on point:

We absolutely are in the middle of a mania.

The current mania comes with its own problems.

Some of these men who have seen their careers fall have spent those careers abusing their positions. Some of them deserve what they get.

The problem is that it opens the door for false claims. False claims can ruin lives of people who don’t deserve it. They also make it more difficult for those with genuine complaints to be taken seriously.

Anyone who has been sexually assaulted, or harassed should be heard and get justice. The sensationalism that comes with the airing of the complaints makes it much more difficult to be fair to all parties involved.

[Jed_]

The ‘mania’ as just described has had me worry some that metoo-ism might become trendy if it hasn’t already with many desiring to jump on the bandwagon.  I can imagine a woman seeing a male coworker glance at her cleavage thinking ‘Ah ha!  I’ve just been harassed!’ when perhaps all he was thinking was that her outfit seemed inappropriate at work.