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Offline Writers Bloque

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Reply #3080 on: July 09, 2024, 03:47:01 PM
Are there any states in which the tide is flowing the other way? By that I mean towards complete secularization of public education?

The other option, that of teaching comparative religion, always struck me as impractical. Which religions do you teach? How do you represent those religions? How do you 'compare' them? What strikes me as an eminently reasonable approach is the "Theory of Knowledge" module in the International Baccalaureate. Teach the students to think for themselves and question knowledge itself.

It is a very delicately balanced issue on a knifes razor edge. On one extreme religion is taught, on the other it is disregarded. Both are very dangerous. To disregard it is to basically block off any attempt to understand it, confusing and limiting, hindering a persons own path to knowledge, and forcing it to be taught creates a dangerous boredom where people tune it out. Its all a personal thing. Philosophy of Religion teaches the merits and demerits of each religion, starting with the primitive ancient ancestor worship, all the way to the big 3. The funny thing about this is that it took someone questioning the catholic faith to prove that God isn't gonna strike you down for wanting to know more and learning to question, or Martin Luther would have been burnt to a crisp on the churches steps as a heretic.

My faith, as a christian says that you can share it, but not to force others to follow your path, as it is yours and yours alone.

There was a secular teaching movement in the 90's with an alternative school I dont know if I am spelling it correctly but Montessori? They tried to teach a religion free curriculum based on "Knowledge" The best way to teach religion is to first define it, Religion> Reglios> To tie or to Bind. Faith and religion are two different things. PH said it best, "Religion is a man made construct. But faith is entirely personal." Like the biggest common denominator among the world's religions is a shared understanding of the basic values of the culture where it is born. Also almost every religion in the world has gone through a reformation or two. Like Buddhism is a reformation of Hinduism, etc.

Your point and questions are valid, but its missing a big question: Who would be qualified to teach it? Since religion is just a gathering of people who share the similar faiths, how would we choose someone to objectively teach it, since it is a deeply personal thing? I also tend to believe that many religions almost require you to question things, not just to satisfy personal curiosities, but to also open up doors to learning more and more about what you believe in, or even the polar opposite, to see what is really going on.

Someone once told me that you should be an atheist in school. I called bullshit on it, because some of the biggest scientific discoveries in human history were discovered by people of faith. For example "The Grandfather of the study of Modern Genetics." was a bored, curious monk with a Pea garden. Did his religion or faith have anything to do with it? probably. I mean after his chores and prayers were done, he spent time in the garden, writing down his discoveries. Some argue it could have been anyone else, but I say no, because most people were busy surviving, and only he had the time to fuck around with pea plants. I have never encountered a religion that said to not think for ones self and not to question anything. I have encountered people who use religion evilly, to control and enslave, but strip the bullshit, and the faith is there to guide, not control. Thats why I separate Faith from Religion. But maybe one day all faiths can be taught without people feeling its forced down their throats. Remember religion started with a question: Who made the sky mad?

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Offline MissBarbara

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Reply #3081 on: July 09, 2024, 06:47:51 PM

Are there any states in which the tide is flowing the other way? By that I mean towards complete secularization of public education?

The other option, that of teaching comparative religion, always struck me as impractical. Which religions do you teach? How do you represent those religions? How do you 'compare' them? What strikes me as an eminently reasonable approach is the "Theory of Knowledge" module in the International Baccalaureate. Teach the students to think for themselves and question knowledge itself.


I'm going to overgeneralize a bit here, but in general, public schools are already fully secularized.

"Comparative religion" classes are primarily taught to older high school kids (if at all), and most strive for objective discussions of the beliefs and practices of different religions, without any proselytizing or evangelizing.

As I noted above, a series of Supreme Court decisions, beginning in the early 1960s and continuing for the following 60+ years, have defined and established the "consequences" of the religious protections guaranteed in the 1st Amendment. The main point of the Engel v. Vitale decision, which I cited above, was not as much banning public prayer in public schools as it was banning specific prayers relating to specific religions in public schools. Of course, the effect of the decision was to ban all public prayers in public schools, but the main point was that these prayers violated the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment, and represented the government enforcing these prayers on all students, regardless of their religious beliefs (or lack thereof).

All of this is compounded by the fact that a shockingly high number of Americans are not familiar with what those two clauses in the 1st Amendment actually say, and what they actually mean. The intent was to allow American to worship as they choose (or not worship at all), and Thomas Jefferson's metaphorical "wall of separation between church and state" was to protect "the church" from the state, and not the other way around. And, again, this includes non-believers as well.

I could go on at great length, and it's true that some Evangelical protestants have crossed the line and jumped over that wall. For example, last week the Governor of Louisiana signed into law a bill passed by the state legislature mandating that a list of the 10 Commandments be posted in every public school classroom -- including state-funded university classrooms. But it's worth noting that this is a clear test case, intended to provoke court appeals, and the state will be sued (if they haven't been already) for violating the 1st Amendment.






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Offline Shiela_M

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Reply #3082 on: July 10, 2024, 02:16:03 AM
I've been following along, but not saying much as I'm not fully knowledgeable in all the supreme court stuff, and founding father stuff, but I find it odd that in highschool, I would be taught about greek mythology and Roman mythology, but it was not considered religion. Was it not the religious belief of their time?

Dead religion, but still religion.

I've said it before I'll say it again. The hydrogen atom is the most abundant and simplest thing in the universe yet human beings are completely incapable of creating a single one. Yet over the years we have created AND DESTROYED dozens if not hundreds of "gods"!

Wonder if there will be a day where "christian mythology" will be taught in schools.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2024, 03:43:54 AM by Shiela_M »



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Reply #3083 on: July 10, 2024, 07:26:27 AM
Thank you Writers Bloque, Miss Barbara and Shiela for your responses to my question about the separation of religion and education in the United States. My information was clearly out of date or in error — or both.  :facepalm:



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Reply #3084 on: July 10, 2024, 09:50:28 AM
Wonder if there will be a day where "christian mythology" will be taught in schools.

That's an interesting observation, Shiela.

I can't provide sources, but I recall reading about research that sought to arrange the earliest Christian scriptures in chronological order, incorporating recent discoveries of an increasing number of very old Coptic documents.

What these chronologies suggest is that the earliest references follow a basic pattern along the lines of "Someone asked Jesus: '———?' Jesus replied: '———.'" With time more colour and detail were added to these dialogues, along with a growing number of inconsistencies.

If this research is valid, it would suggest that Christianity began as a philosophy and the mythology came later.

There's a parallel of sorts in Buddhism, with the earliest scriptures taking the form of sermons. Later scriptures added embellishments and anecdotes as the teachings spread geographically.

And talking of sermons, I had the good fortune of hearing Donald Soper holding forth at Speakers' Corner in Hyde Park on many, many occasions. I've heard any number of sermons delivered by gifted preachers, but never have I heard anyone interact with hecklers in such a good-natured and supremely articulate way.



Offline Writers Bloque

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Reply #3085 on: July 10, 2024, 03:00:10 PM
I've been following along, but not saying much as I'm not fully knowledgeable in all the supreme court stuff, and founding father stuff, but I find it odd that in highschool, I would be taught about greek mythology and Roman mythology, but it was not considered religion. Was it not the religious belief of their time?

Dead religion, but still religion.

I've said it before I'll say it again. The hydrogen atom is the most abundant and simplest thing in the universe yet human beings are completely incapable of creating a single one. Yet over the years we have created AND DESTROYED dozens if not hundreds of "gods"!

Wonder if there will be a day where "christian mythology" will be taught in schools.

As for Greek Mythology, It was a religion in a sense, they paid their respects to the gods to leave them the fuck alone. All of the myths shown that the gods did not care for humans much. So there was nowhere to gleam any virtue from, except from the "Heros" and not the gods, who were actually terrible. Also the hero's were not much better, with Jason who completely fucked over Madea who killed her own uncle to get that damned fleece, only to be sent packing when Jason was offered the chance to be a prince. So as for both to be a formal religion, no. It was basically fancied up news reports from their areas in Greece. They built temples to pay respects and conduct ceremonies, but other than that, there were no wandering priests giving sermons from the gods.

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Offline MissBarbara

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Reply #3086 on: July 10, 2024, 03:09:38 PM

Wonder if there will be a day where "christian mythology" will be taught in schools.


That's an interesting observation, Shiela.

I can't provide sources, but I recall reading about research that sought to arrange the earliest Christian scriptures in chronological order, incorporating recent discoveries of an increasing number of very old Coptic documents.

What these chronologies suggest is that the earliest references follow a basic pattern along the lines of "Someone asked Jesus: '———?' Jesus replied: '———.'" With time more colour and detail were added to these dialogues, along with a growing number of inconsistencies.

If this research is valid, it would suggest that Christianity began as a philosophy and the mythology came later.

There's a parallel of sorts in Buddhism, with the earliest scriptures taking the form of sermons. Later scriptures added embellishments and anecdotes as the teachings spread geographically.

And talking of sermons, I had the good fortune of hearing Donald Soper holding forth at Speakers' Corner in Hyde Park on many, many occasions. I've heard any number of sermons delivered by gifted preachers, but never have I heard anyone interact with hecklers in such a good-natured and supremely articulate way.


I agree with Shiela, the fact that ancient mythologies (Roman, Greek, Norse, etc.) are widely taught in public schools (and they still are today) does potentially raise eyebrows.

I think the essential difference is that they are read and taught as stories, and not as theology. The students are not encouraged to believe that Jupiter, Ares, or Thor are actually divine and that they actually guide the actions of humans (and all of the other fun stuff they did). They're simply stories, and they're fun and interesting stories. I strongly suspect that there are very few children who come home from school and build a little shrine in their bedrooms to Venus or Athena, nor do they begin praying to the intercession of Odin or Zeus.

On top of that, in the U.S., the majority of Christian believers do not hold that the Bible, and especially the Old Testament, is an actual, historical account of people that actually existed and events that actually occurred. Yes, there are some Evangelicals who read the Bible literally, and believe that all those things -- Adam & Eve, Noah's Ark, parting the Red Sea, Balaam's talking donkey, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc. -- actually took place. The clear majority of Christians, including virtually all Catholics, are not Biblical literalists, and they see these stories as stories.





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Reply #3087 on: July 10, 2024, 05:43:40 PM
One of the reasons I converted to Orthodoxy some 25 years ago is that it considers the Bible as written by man, and  therefore subject to human error. Which it is.

If the entire history of the world was condensed down to a single month, Hominids have only been around 6 hours. Homo sapiens have been around 23 minutes on December 31. Yet we think we know God and truth and heaven and hell.

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Offline msslave

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Reply #3088 on: July 14, 2024, 02:43:39 PM
TIL:
I am  old.  :facepalm: Yesterday made a cheese run. No not the kind  from a few years ago that a few of you know about.

Wife and I headed to our favorite cheese shop in Wisconsin, about 80 miles away. Got there fine and made our selections from their award winning cheeses.

We finished the trip with a leasurly lunch before heading home. About halfway down the road I started feeling very drowsy. Forced myself to keep my eyes open until we got to the northern edge of the metro area.

Told the wife I had to rest a bit before going on. I sat there for about 20 minutes. Wife was silent. Think I scared her. Finally I walked to the rest area building, used the facilities and back in the car.

That helped wake me up and I felt able to continue on. The heavy city traffic helped keep me alert.and a half hour later we were in our garage.

Cheese unloaded I sat in my chair and promptly fell sound asleep for two hours until supper. Yes, after we ate more TV. I lasted a couple hours a off to dreamland I went again.

It's hard to admit I can no longer make the trip I've done many hundreds of times that included other activities such as my wildlife photography will now require another driver.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2024, 02:47:56 PM by msslave »

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Offline Shiela_M

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Reply #3089 on: July 14, 2024, 06:57:41 PM
Let's start a GoFundMe page so we can get you an Uber to drive you there and back. We'll higher a strapping young man who will drive you to either place while only wearing the bare minimum.😘

On a serious note, I'm glad you pulled over and took that needed break. I dont know exactly how far you have to drive, but when I go to Milwaukee to visit friends I always pull over half way there, just to break up the drive.

I'll hope that soon you'll get another visit from your daughter, and she can drive you out to your favorite spots.💋



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Reply #3090 on: July 14, 2024, 07:44:58 PM
Thanks Love 💞

As someone who's always loved to drive it's hard having to admit I can't do what I used to love. I always.said if I thought I started to be a danger to others I'd turn in my keys.

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Offline Writers Bloque

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Reply #3091 on: July 14, 2024, 07:54:31 PM
Thanks Love 💞

As someone who's always loved to drive it's hard having to admit I can't do what I used to love. I always.said if I thought I started to be a danger to others I'd turn in my keys.

Msslave, I humbly volunteer to drive up to drive you around, the cost: A local delicacy. Or that gofundme. I wonder if Msslave's insurance would cover doctor appointment trips? its a little hassle, and I know from helping set them up for my mom to and from the hospital, and the times she was discharged, as my dad was busy, as were my siblings. Might want to look into that, so at least you know your covered for appointments, and as for the cheese runs and all, the gofundme, i guess.

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Reply #3092 on: July 19, 2024, 06:51:53 PM
It's the middle of winter. It's cold and its been raining for 2 weeks straight. With my cracked ribs, putting on warm socks has proved considerably more challenging than anticipated. Luckily, a pair of braai (bbq) tongs can do the job in a pinch  ;D



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Reply #3093 on: July 19, 2024, 07:01:49 PM
It's the middle of winter. It's cold and its been raining for 2 weeks straight. With my cracked ribs, putting on warm socks has proved considerably more challenging than anticipated. Luckily, a pair of braai (bbq) tongs can do the job in a pinch  ;D

I was writing you words of encouragement concerning your cracked ribs, when the website went down on Tuesday. I fell and cracked three ribs in February, and it has to have been one of the most *painful* things I have ever experienced, including open heart surgery.

I quickly learned that laughing, coughing, and even breathing can be excruciatingly painful. Getting in and out of a chair. Rolling over in bed. So many things that we take for granted involve the ribs. I had no idea. I was in absolute agony. They told me to give it 90 days.  And 90 days did help. But even to this day, there are some nights I have difficulty sleeping on my side, due to residual pain.

I know none of this is a comfort, but I just want you to be aware that there are those of us who understand what you’re going through. I have a very high pain threshold. Not much bothers me. But rib pain is god-awful.

Wishing you a speedy recovery.

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Reply #3094 on: July 19, 2024, 07:44:20 PM
Thanks a lot. I've had cracked ribs a couple of times before so unfortunately I know what I am in for.

I drove in this morning, and cursed the municipality for each and every speedbump they put in. The previous time was in the spring time. Hayfever season. Thank God, I'm skipping that this time.  :emot_laughing:



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Reply #3095 on: July 24, 2024, 12:45:09 PM


I learned what the numbers in a blood pressure reading actually mean.

The systolic (first number) measures how much pressure is being applied to the walls of your arteries during a heartbeat.

The diastolic number measures how much pressure is being applied to the walls of your arteries between heartbeats.




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Reply #3096 on: July 25, 2024, 05:47:44 AM
Today, Youtube slipped in Helsingør Pigegarde - Elsinore Girls Marching Band, into my algorithim. They are an all girls marching band from Denmark. They look like an average marching band, not so precise marching movements with sheet music posted on their instruments. They marched in the Pasadena Tournament of Roses parade in 2015 and 2020.



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Reply #3097 on: July 25, 2024, 05:53:22 PM


I learned what the numbers in a blood pressure reading actually mean.

The systolic (first number) measures how much pressure is being applied to the walls of your arteries during a heartbeat.

The diastolic number measures how much pressure is being applied to the walls of your arteries between heartbeats.

Thanks PS.  Never got round to consulting Dr. Google for myself  ;D

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Reply #3098 on: July 26, 2024, 12:07:13 PM


Sometimes I wonder how we ever survived before the internet bestowed the gift of search engines upon us.   ;D




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Reply #3099 on: July 27, 2024, 04:28:06 AM
I didn't know that Mervyn Peake wrote a novel called Mr Pye. I've read and re-read his Gormenghast quartet several times and assumed his other works were for children and young adults.

The way I stumbled on Mr Pye was odd. There's an ImageFap user who posts screenshot galleries of actors and celebrities appearing unclothed in films and television series. His most recent gallery was of UK actress Robin McCaffrey appearing in the TV adaptation of Mr Pye, made in 1986.

I've picked up a digital copy of Mr Pye and will read it this weekend. I'll keep an eye open for the TV series.