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Offline watcher1

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Reply #40 on: September 01, 2009, 04:08:58 AM
I have to say that over the past few days there have been some really well written posts in various threads. May I commend all you writers of these posts. Poppet's latest post is another fine example.

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Melissa

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Reply #41 on: September 01, 2009, 04:18:18 AM
I don't believe "Democracy" is in the Bible.  Nor is it in the Constitution.  In fact, the United States is not a democracy.

One of the things that irritate me is politicians speaking about our democracy.  Bush did it, Obama has done it and so have many others.  Then, I see high school history teachers speaking of our form of government being a "democracy."  They should have their teaching certificates revoked.  Idiots!

No, the Constitution does not mention capitalism nor socialism.  But, it does speak to commerce.  Freedom of trade is what has allowed this nation to grow to what it is.  Restrict trade and your personal rights will soon follow.  What do you think brought about the trade?  Inspired people with ideas to grow into a trade?  Such as the likes of Herman Hollerith, Henry Ford, Sam Walton, Michael Dell and many others.  Yes, there were women as well though none come to mind at the moment.

If capitalism is so wrong, why is China growing by leaps and bounds with its current production and trade levels?  It still has a socialist government but they have learned what brings in the money.  Even so, it has a long ways to go.

As for the United States, we'll get worse under Obama.



Offline Lois

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Reply #42 on: September 01, 2009, 05:55:50 AM
 Restrict trade and your personal rights will soon follow.

I'm not sure how you get this logic.  Can you illustrate with an example?  I'm not against trade per se, so long as the trade is FAIR.

Quote
If capitalism is so wrong, why is China growing by leaps and bounds with its current production and trade levels?  It still has a socialist government but they have learned what brings in the money.
 

No one said Capitalism is wrong.  Hybrid systems actually work best. 

Sure China's economy is booming.  But it is not exactly Socialist.  (Public education in China is quite limited, and no one gets vacation pay.  Other social services most of the west takes for granted are also limited in China.)   There are few freedoms and the limited democracy they have there means the government is accountable to no one.

I would classify China as Stalinist/Capitalism.  Take Stalinism and strip it of its communist trappings.  Then put State Capitalism in its place.  You end up something worse than Capitalism under a democratic system because no one is then accountable to anyone - and the people are just meat.

Is economic growth more important than human rights?  I would say no.




Melissa

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Reply #43 on: September 01, 2009, 06:47:38 AM
If one is not allowed to capitalize and grow a profitable business based on their knowledge and/or their resources, are they not having their personal liberties restricted?



Offline AvatarofTruth

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Reply #44 on: September 01, 2009, 12:39:41 PM
Define profit.

Profit, in economics, means above and beyond all costs. Including salary. Including benefits. Including the money required to reinvest in your business to keep it going. People say profit when it isn't what they mean at all.

Many hospitals and insurance companies are not-for-profit. There is a fine line between non-profit and NFP; it is a legal distinction. A non-profit is just that; it cannot make a profit. A NFP is a company who can make a profit, so long as the profit is reinvested solely in enlarging the company, not in making new acquisitions of smaller companies or the like.

If I were in charge of reforming health care in this country, this is what I would do, for starters. Create a government run health insurance company that charges premiums on a sliding scale. It would be setup in a such a way that, while not entirely self-sustaining, the cost to the tax payer would be minimized. Policy decisions would be made, not by politicians or businessmen, but by qualified medical professionals on a board of directors which would be comprised of members nominated and confirmed by the medical community in some capacity. There would be term limits, etc. Jobs would be given at the admin level to people with insurance industry experience.

It's really the only way I can see that would clean up the mess we're in. We don't want to go frying pan-fire with an entirely government run system; that wouldn't be much better than what we have now. However, the industry is so collusive, there is no 'free market', no real competition, and without it costs skyrocket every year on both ends (insurance and medical care) without any checks or balances. It is therefore, in my opinion, the necessary duty of the government to either legislate them into competition, or provide a competing alternative. I personally favor the latter, because I think it would be more effective.


Offline watcher1

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Reply #45 on: September 01, 2009, 02:23:41 PM
[quote author=AvatarofTruth link=topic=4951.msg35888#msg35888

Many hospitals and insurance companies are not-for-profit. There is a fine line between non-profit and NFP; it is a legal distinction. A non-profit is just that; it cannot make a profit. A NFP is a company who can make a profit, so long as the profit is reinvested solely in enlarging the company, not in making new acquisitions of smaller companies or the like.

.
[/quote]

Interesting, AoT. Around my area though, many hospitals are being bought by huge health care corporations. I wonder what definition of non-profit or NFP they would fall under?

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Melissa

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Reply #46 on: September 01, 2009, 02:29:45 PM
Wonderful... more progressive taxation.  Just what we need, the producers paying for the lazy asses.  I do that already.



Offline stefanwolf

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Reply #47 on: September 01, 2009, 04:26:51 PM
I dont understand(retorical stament btw) what the commotion is about.  Its really quiet simple.  The constitution does provide for the welfare of its citizens in the preamble.  Article 1, Section 8 does empower congress to raise funds to provide for that welfare(heathcare) of its citizens

As for insurance, it is not insuring a person if one can not afford it.
 
The idea of acess to healh care for every American is not debatable.  It is only debatable where the money goes.  I would much rather see the billions that go to insurance companies go to providing health care for the millions who dont have access to basic healthcare.

   "If I lick the Henna off the small of a back;   Will it dye my tongue? And if I swallow it down; Will it tattoo my heart?"


Offline Lois

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Reply #48 on: September 01, 2009, 06:58:43 PM
If one is not allowed to capitalize and grow a profitable business based on their knowledge and/or their resources, are they not having their personal liberties restricted?

LMFAO!  Yeah, I can quit my job and buy a business.  But damnit, what if those consumers don't want to buy my goods!  They are restricting my liberties!

We can all follow our dreams Melissa, but finding a profitable niche is more important if you want to grow a business.  No on can guarantee that.  Situations change.  Adaptability is key.



Offline watcher1

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Reply #49 on: September 01, 2009, 07:59:08 PM
Nothing wrong with capitalism. All you have to do is look at Russia and its satellite countries after communism. People, who for generations were given jobs and everything else, did not know how to make a living. Their creativity was gone. The drive to create new products and put them on the market, thus creating jobs is good. Capitalism brings in new ideas. What is wrong with capitalism, though, is what happened during the Bush years when safeguards were lowered and the watchdogs pulled back. Capitalism ran amok. Safety issues were ignored. This country, in order to get its economy turned around, needs to create sustainable jobs that pay a decent wage, not more service type jobs that pay minimum wage. Neither will these stimulus packages help in the long run. When the money runs out, what then? All the stimulus jobs are temporary jobs anyway.

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Offline ebilbob

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Reply #50 on: September 01, 2009, 08:44:56 PM
Wonderful... more progressive taxation.  Just what we need, the producers paying for the lazy asses.  I do that already.

Alright. I've had enough of your bullshit rhetoric. I'll bet you $100 into a paypal account that I've paid more federal income tax over the past 10 years than you have and I'll post the bottom lines on a decade of tax returns to prove it if you will.

You're another one of those fucking idiots that whine about paying for everyone else when in fact, I doubt you actually pay a significant amount of income tax at all. You're not pissed about what's being taken. You're pissed about someone else getting something that you don't think they deserve. And I've got $100 to back up my assertion.

Put up or shut up. I'm sick of it.



Offline watcher1

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Reply #51 on: September 01, 2009, 09:56:25 PM
Paypal, hell.  The $100. will be held by one of the Mods. Fight fair, now. No low blows and no sucker punches. At the sound of the bell, you will come out, touch gloves, and go at it. May the best man, or woman, win.  ;D

Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds.


Offline AvatarofTruth

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Reply #52 on: September 01, 2009, 10:29:16 PM
Stefanwolf, you're correct. There is absolute legal precedent, in the Constitution as it was originally written, to back up the notion of a government option for health care. Mel just follows the current right-wing rhetoric blindly, without realizing that it is in fact at odds with the beliefs of the Founders she thinks she so proudly supports, including Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and George Washington.

ebilbob, you're correct, too. Mel is so full of her own bullshit I don't think enough oxygen is getting to her brain cells. She's so concerned with people wasting her hard earned money, when she hasn't considered that public welfare is such a small part of the federal budget, it's pathetic. If you want to be mad at someone wasting tax dollars, look no further than the DoD. That's where the big bucks are.




Offline watcher1

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Reply #53 on: September 02, 2009, 12:58:05 AM
Yeah to AoT for bringing up the DoD as a black hole where many of our tax dollars go.  Would like to see the DoD get with the times and quit spending billions on unnecessary weaponry and outdated strategies. I have said this before in other threads - the Military Industrial Complex needs to be held accountable.

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Offline stefanwolf

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Reply #54 on: September 02, 2009, 01:24:17 AM
As a recipient of some of that DoD money, I cant argue against the institution.  I can and have always concerned myself with waste in the DoD.  Let us all remember that health care for service members and their families is part of the DoD budget- a single payer system btw..  I am truly sorry to Mel for wasting her hard earned money for the privilege of taking care of those sick and injured. Perhaps she will accept payment in blood her countrymen and women have shed for her rats(as they say here in the south) to rant as she shes fit.

   "If I lick the Henna off the small of a back;   Will it dye my tongue? And if I swallow it down; Will it tattoo my heart?"


Offline AvatarofTruth

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Reply #55 on: September 02, 2009, 08:15:36 AM
To quote my Grandfather, a vet of three wars and recipient of the purple heart, silver star and two DFCs:

"I support the soldiers, not the system."

The system is fucked over at the DoD. I grew up in the military, I know a few bases better than cities I've lived in. I support the ultimate mission of the Army, Navy, and Air Force, but let's face it, the DoD/DoW budget has been a barrel of pork since 1812.

From a Supreme Court decision regarding the right of Congress to exercise its War Powers in peacetime. Although the court affirmed Congress' power, it cautioned:
Quote
[w]e recognize the force of the argument that the effects of war under modern conditions may be felt in the economy for years and years, and that if the war power can be used in days of peace to treat all the wounds which war inflicts on our society, it may not only swallow up all other powers of Congress but largely obliterate the Ninth and Tenth Amendments as well.

Anyway, yes the military wastes tax payer dollars. So does almost everything else at every level of government. But let's not throw the babe out with the bathwater; there are a lot of things the DoD, and other government entities do that are not wastes of time, so instead of arguing that all taxation is unjust and should be eliminated (which is completely opposite what our founders believed) we should focus on two things; defining 'pork', and figuring out how to strip it.


Melissa

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Reply #56 on: September 02, 2009, 09:19:09 AM
Stefanwolf, you're correct. There is absolute legal precedent, in the Constitution as it was originally written, to back up the notion of a government option for health care. Mel just follows the current right-wing rhetoric blindly, without realizing that it is in fact at odds with the beliefs of the Founders she thinks she so proudly supports, including Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and George Washington.

ebilbob, you're correct, too. Mel is so full of her own bullshit I don't think enough oxygen is getting to her brain cells. She's so concerned with people wasting her hard earned money, when she hasn't considered that public welfare is such a small part of the federal budget, it's pathetic. If you want to be mad at someone wasting tax dollars, look no further than the DoD. That's where the big bucks are.

You need to read more carefully.  I'm far from a "right winger."  I'm strictly a conservative who wishes to keep what is mine... what I've worked for and earned.

As for welfare being a small part, I don't think this is a small part...

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/us_welfare_spending_40.html#usgs30240



Melissa

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Reply #57 on: September 02, 2009, 09:28:22 AM
Alright. I've had enough of your bullshit rhetoric. I'll bet you $100 into a paypal account that I've paid more federal income tax over the past 10 years than you have and I'll post the bottom lines on a decade of tax returns to prove it if you will.

You're another one of those fucking idiots that whine about paying for everyone else when in fact, I doubt you actually pay a significant amount of income tax at all. You're not pissed about what's being taken. You're pissed about someone else getting something that you don't think they deserve. And I've got $100 to back up my assertion.

Put up or shut up. I'm sick of it.

You're probably right.  You likely have paid more taxes than I have.  But, perhaps that is because you haven't established a plan to provide the lowest tax liability possible.  My goal was to pay out as little as possible, not maximize my liability.  You would be amazed at how well a good tax attorney can pay for their efforts and cost you virtually nothing.

I'll send $100 to the Corporate Angel Network in the name of "Ebibob."  They schedule to provide free flights to medical patients on unused corporate aircraft.  Imagine that, corporate America giving money away?



Melissa

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Reply #58 on: September 02, 2009, 09:34:55 AM
LMFAO!  Yeah, I can quit my job and buy a business.  But damnit, what if those consumers don't want to buy my goods!  They are restricting my liberties!

We can all follow our dreams Melissa, but finding a profitable niche is more important if you want to grow a business.  No on can guarantee that.  Situations change.  Adaptability is key.

If you have a service or product for which there is a demand, knock yourself out.  But, that's entirely up to you to accomplish.  It's not a right that you be successful but it is a right that you have the opportunity to find success.

My biggest issue with the National Endowment for the Arts is it gives tax money to individuals and organizations which cannot sell their wares or services on their own merits.



Offline NonDairy

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Reply #59 on: September 02, 2009, 09:46:29 AM
If you have a service or product for which there is a demand, knock yourself out.  But, that's entirely up to you to accomplish.  It's not a right that you be successful but it is a right that you have the opportunity to find success.

My biggest issue with the National Endowment for the Arts is it gives tax money to individuals and organizations which cannot sell their wares or services on their own merits.

Do you know a whole lot of people who have the means to purchase avant garde art? Besides, it's not about selling it, it's about showing it, producing it. The government doesn't fund these artists and then own their work, as far as I know. That's like saying the goverment owns Sesame Street because it's on public television.

I do get confused by people who claim to be devout Chrisitans and then fail entirely to show any charity to anyone. “And now abideth faith, hope and charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity (I Corinthians 13:13).”

And, to maybe make my point a little further: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/244/story/68456.html

I think the world would be a much worse place if everyone said, "I'm strictly a conservative who wishes to keep what is mine... what I've worked for and earned."

"I'd rather let a thousand guilty men go free than chase after them." - C.W.