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Offline Poppet

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Reply #140 on: November 10, 2009, 02:58:20 AM
maybe if we spent fewer $$$$$$$ on military we could afford Medicare for all ...

Hippety Hop, It\\\\\\\'s Pippety Pop. I have guns...and...I give instruction..


Melissa

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Reply #141 on: November 10, 2009, 06:07:17 AM
That's a great idea.  How much should it be lowered?  You don't think it's come down enough with Dims in power?  Should we leave those currently in Iraq and Afghanistan without further support or should we bring everyone home and just let whatever happen?  Perhaps we should also save any money by suspending the investigation on the Muslim attack at Fort Hood?

Please, how much should we lower that expense?



Offline ebilbob

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Reply #142 on: November 10, 2009, 12:32:51 PM
That's a great idea.  How much should it be lowered?  You don't think it's come down enough with Dims in power?  Should we leave those currently in Iraq and Afghanistan without further support or should we bring everyone home and just let whatever happen?  Perhaps we should also save any money by suspending the investigation on the Muslim attack at Fort Hood?

Please, how much should we lower that expense?

If you characterize an attack by a native-born American citizen who was a member of the military as a "Muslim attack," I wonder how you characterized the acts of the Unibomber, George Jo Hennard and Timmothy McVeigh. Were those "Protestant attacks" or "Caucasian attacks?"

You really are a pitiful excuse for a citizen. Are you capable of looking at any event or fact without having Glenn Beck tell you what to think about it?

And yes. We SHOULD pull out of Iraq completely and scale back operations in Afghanistan while continuing to foster diplomatic ties to Pakistan and providing training and support to the factions that aren't friendly to terrorist groups there and in Afghanistan itself. Cost savings in withdrawing from Iraq and reducing our role in Afghanistan to an advisory presence? 1 trillion dollars over the next decade. Or almost exactly enough to ensure every American citizen has access to quality health care under the House's proposed reform legislation.
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL33110.pdf

Oh, and every single cut to the military budget since the Democrats took control of both houses has been at the recommendation of the Secretary of Defense. He's even asked for cuts that he didn't get. Wait. Let me guess. You're one of those people that only think we should listen to military leaders about military matters when they say what you think they should say, right?

And finally, the budget for the United States military is higher for FY 09 than in FY 2005, even in cost adjusted dollars, which in light of your statements begs the question of who exactly you are qualified to call "Dim."

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/budget/fy2005/index.html
http://www.defenselink.mil/comptroller/defbudget/fy2009/index.html



Offline Poppet

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Reply #143 on: November 11, 2009, 04:33:00 AM
I'd say... lower it to the average of all western countries and the former soviet union. Isn't currently the case that the US spends more on arms than every other nation combined?

Hippety Hop, It\\\\\\\'s Pippety Pop. I have guns...and...I give instruction..


Melissa

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Reply #144 on: November 11, 2009, 07:47:34 AM
Bubba Bob, before I further entertain your nonsense, tell me when the FY2009 budget was written?

Pop, Yes, we spend more than most.  And, think about how many nations depend on us for defense.  What does Canada, Japan and numerous other nations have for defense that have little or no military?  You really don't want to see defense spending decreased.



Offline Poppet

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Reply #145 on: November 11, 2009, 02:05:16 PM
I think it's a real option, frankly. One that should be considered seriously.

I'm also interested that a country that espouses self reliance on one hand (healthcare) should use the 'other weak nations need us" argument when it comes to military spending. It's true that peace in Europe for example was a by-product of US-soviet impasse, but health and energy are national security issues, too.

We need to divert $$ to them

Hippety Hop, It\\\\\\\'s Pippety Pop. I have guns...and...I give instruction..


Offline ebilbob

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Reply #146 on: November 11, 2009, 02:21:57 PM
Bubba Bob, before I further entertain your nonsense, tell me when the FY2009 budget was written?


You picked the wrong guy to debate government acquisition and budgeting procedures with. Why don't you break your normal mode of operation and tell ME something for a change? How about YOU enlighten ME with what you think you know about the budget approval process instead of sniping at every fact that gets posted without contributing a single substantiated fact yourself?

Oh, wait. Let me guess. This is where you say "I'm not going to take the time...blah blah blah. If you can't blah blah blah..." like you've done every other time you've been called out to back up anything you pretend to know. So instead, just call people names. Because that's the type of response we've all come to expect from you when confronted with direct facts and challenges to your bullshit.

I'll tell you what I don't understand about you. You're obviously posting obsessively about shit you know nothing about simply because you need the attention. And that's okay. A lot of people don't get enough attention in their real lives and will take ridicule and disdain over that empty feeling they endure from just being ignored all the time. That doesn't make you a bad person. It just makes you lonely and sad and maybe that's not even your fault. Maybe you are the way you are because of a string of bad luck and not a series of bad decisions that turned you into a loud-mouthed know-it-all that doesn't actually know anything. I don't hold any of that against you on the outside opportunity that you didn't turn yourself into a pathetic attention whore on purpose.

What I don't get is why, on a fringe sex board, you've chosen to beg for the attention you crave so desperately by arguing about issues you know the least about on political threads.

You'd get a lot more attention if you'd just talk about your vagina and things you can fit inside it. And instead of just making everyone pity you, you'd probably develop a fan base. I'm absolutely certain that even if you've had your pussy sewn shut for a couple of decades, you still know more about what goes on inside there than you do about any of the topics you actually post on, so don't be afraid of sounding like an idiot. You already do.



Offline watcher1

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Reply #147 on: November 11, 2009, 07:32:54 PM
I think it's a real option, frankly. One that should be considered seriously.

I'm also interested that a country that espouses self reliance on one hand (healthcare) should use the 'other weak nations need us" argument when it comes to military spending. It's true that peace in Europe for example was a by-product of US-soviet impasse, but health and energy are national security issues, too.

We need to divert $$ to them

I am with you on this, G.  With two unpopular military actions sapping our already weak economy of much needed money, it is about time the military industrial complex takes a back seat to the much needed help here on the homefront.

Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds.


Melissa

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Reply #148 on: November 13, 2009, 10:07:02 AM
Bubba Bob, before I further entertain your nonsense, tell me when the FY2009 budget was written?


You picked the wrong guy to debate government acquisition and budgeting procedures with. Why don't you break your normal mode of operation and tell ME something for a change? How about YOU enlighten ME with what you think you know about the budget approval process instead of sniping at every fact that gets posted without contributing a single substantiated fact yourself?

Oh, wait. Let me guess. This is where you say "I'm not going to take the time...blah blah blah. If you can't blah blah blah..." like you've done every other time you've been called out to back up anything you pretend to know. So instead, just call people names. Because that's the type of response we've all come to expect from you when confronted with direct facts and challenges to your bullshit.

I'll tell you what I don't understand about you. You're obviously posting obsessively about shit you know nothing about simply because you need the attention. And that's okay. A lot of people don't get enough attention in their real lives and will take ridicule and disdain over that empty feeling they endure from just being ignored all the time. That doesn't make you a bad person. It just makes you lonely and sad and maybe that's not even your fault. Maybe you are the way you are because of a string of bad luck and not a series of bad decisions that turned you into a loud-mouthed know-it-all that doesn't actually know anything. I don't hold any of that against you on the outside opportunity that you didn't turn yourself into a pathetic attention whore on purpose.

What I don't get is why, on a fringe sex board, you've chosen to beg for the attention you crave so desperately by arguing about issues you know the least about on political threads.

You'd get a lot more attention if you'd just talk about your vagina and things you can fit inside it. And instead of just making everyone pity you, you'd probably develop a fan base. I'm absolutely certain that even if you've had your pussy sewn shut for a couple of decades, you still know more about what goes on inside there than you do about any of the topics you actually post on, so don't be afraid of sounding like an idiot. You already do.

All that rhetoric is supposed to make me believe you're a scholar in law and economics?  I suspect your scholarly achievements do not go beyond your annual subscription to Hustler Magazine.

You know nothing about me.  I make an excellent income.  I could have advanced and moved south but stayed here to be with my mother during her last years.  I'd happily move her as well but she's steadfast in her home.  I'm not lonely at all.  I have my family and friends, both personal and professional. 

Before I argue further with you while you appear to be this economic scholar or so claim, when is the current year's budget effective?  Given such, when is it actually written?  Finally, who was in office at the time the budget was written?



Offline ebilbob

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Reply #149 on: November 13, 2009, 01:13:45 PM
Bubba Bob, before I further entertain your nonsense, tell me when the FY2009 budget was written?


You picked the wrong guy to debate government acquisition and budgeting procedures with. Why don't you break your normal mode of operation and tell ME something for a change? How about YOU enlighten ME with what you think you know about the budget approval process instead of sniping at every fact that gets posted without contributing a single substantiated fact yourself?

Oh, wait. Let me guess. This is where you say "I'm not going to take the time...blah blah blah. If you can't blah blah blah..." like you've done every other time you've been called out to back up anything you pretend to know. So instead, just call people names. Because that's the type of response we've all come to expect from you when confronted with direct facts and challenges to your bullshit.

I'll tell you what I don't understand about you. You're obviously posting obsessively about shit you know nothing about simply because you need the attention. And that's okay. A lot of people don't get enough attention in their real lives and will take ridicule and disdain over that empty feeling they endure from just being ignored all the time. That doesn't make you a bad person. It just makes you lonely and sad and maybe that's not even your fault. Maybe you are the way you are because of a string of bad luck and not a series of bad decisions that turned you into a loud-mouthed know-it-all that doesn't actually know anything. I don't hold any of that against you on the outside opportunity that you didn't turn yourself into a pathetic attention whore on purpose.

What I don't get is why, on a fringe sex board, you've chosen to beg for the attention you crave so desperately by arguing about issues you know the least about on political threads.

You'd get a lot more attention if you'd just talk about your vagina and things you can fit inside it. And instead of just making everyone pity you, you'd probably develop a fan base. I'm absolutely certain that even if you've had your pussy sewn shut for a couple of decades, you still know more about what goes on inside there than you do about any of the topics you actually post on, so don't be afraid of sounding like an idiot. You already do.

All that rhetoric is supposed to make me believe you're a scholar in law and economics?  I suspect your scholarly achievements do not go beyond your annual subscription to Hustler Magazine.

You know nothing about me.  I make an excellent income.  I could have advanced and moved south but stayed here to be with my mother during her last years.  I'd happily move her as well but she's steadfast in her home.  I'm not lonely at all.  I have my family and friends, both personal and professional. 

Before I argue further with you while you appear to be this economic scholar or so claim, when is the current year's budget effective?  Given such, when is it actually written?  Finally, who was in office at the time the budget was written?

You don't get to define the conditions of your surrender. Answer my questions.

Oh, and you can't wish away the truth. I do know a lot about you. I know everything you've posted here and that's enough to know that I'm dead-on with my evaluation of your sad life. Your desperate claims of what you hope someone else will see as "success" don't change the fact that you're an empty woman with a hole in her soul that you can't fill up by begging for attention no matter how hard you try. I wish that your vast fortune was enough to make you happy, but obviously it isn't. So keep clinging to your delusions of unmitigated professional achievement that was only thwarted by your devotion to your sick mother. Lots of people blame their parents for their failings and unhappy lives. You're not special.

By the way, where exactly did you read that having a good income makes you an authority on the federal budget? It's that type of thinking that's led you to believe that your ability to turn on a television and comprehend Glenn Beck's lowest-common-denominator side show makes you an expert on politics, medicine, economics and crying on cue. Contrary to your "qualifications," I didn't claim to be a scholar of economics. I said that I know a fuckton more about the federal budgeting process than you do. And it's not because Sean Hannity told me that public health care is Marxist. It's not even because it's so easy to know more than you about everything. It's because it just so happens that I'm a member of the government acquisitions community. I submit budgets for inclusion in the federal budget for a living.

Now answer my questions.



Melissa

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Reply #150 on: November 13, 2009, 09:34:39 PM
Now answer my questions.

Sure... after you answer this one:

Quote
Quote from: Melissa on November 11, 2009, 12:47:34 AM
Bubba Bob, before I further entertain your nonsense, tell me when the FY2009 budget was written?



Melissa

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Reply #151 on: November 14, 2009, 12:43:36 AM

Here's a nice taste of hypocrisy:





Offline Lois

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Reply #152 on: November 14, 2009, 01:59:40 AM
What I don't like about the Healthcare Plan being discussed in Washington DC is that it simply mandates everyone get Health Insurance.

I don't want insurance, I want healthcare.  Insurance companies are the NUMBER ONE reason healthcare in the U.S. is so fucked up.  If the government wanted to solve the problem simply ban private health insurance and provide healthcare directly to the people.

LET'S FIRE THEIR ASSES!  No more exclusions, just healthcare for the people, by the people, and for the people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada

Canadians strongly support the health system's public rather than for-profit private basis, and a 2009 poll by Nanos Research found 86.2% of Canadians surveyed supported or strongly supported "public solutions to make our public health care stronger."

A 2009 Harris/Decima poll found 82% of Canadians preferred their healthcare system to the one in the United States, more than ten times as many as the 8% stating a preference for a US-style health care system for Canada[5] while a Strategic Counsel survey in 2008 found 91% of Canadians preferring their healthcare system to that of the U.S. In the same poll, when asked “overall the Canadian health care system was performing very well, fairly well, not very well or not at all?” 70% of Canadians rated their system as working either "well" or "very well".[citation needed] A 2003 Gallup poll found only 25% of Americans are either "very" or "somewhat" satisfied with "the availability of affordable healthcare in the nation," versus 50% of those in the UK and 57% of Canadians. Those "very dissatisfied" made up 44% of Americans, 25% of respondents of Britons, and 17% of Canadians.

In November 2004, Canadians voted Tommy Douglas, Canada's "father of Medicare," the Greatest Canadian of all time following a nationwide contest sponsored by the CBC.

Health care spending in Canada is projected to reach $160 billion, or 10.6% of GDP, in 2007. This is slightly above the average for OECD countries, and substantially below the 15.2% of GDP taken up by healthcare in the United States as of 2005.



Melissa

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Reply #153 on: November 14, 2009, 02:31:41 AM
I wish I had more to cite to back up my statement.  But, my counterparts within my company in Canada don't feel that way.  I have one acquaintance who moved up in the company allowing him to relocate to Dallas.  For him, his biggest benefit was the ability to get better and more immediate health care for his daughter.  In Canada, she would wait for long periods when appointments were established.  This is for a special needs child.  How would it be less urgent needs?

I can get my girls into their doctor usually on the same day and never past the next day.  I can't imagine them having to wait for a week, let alone several weeks or months for basic health care.



Offline Poppet

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Reply #154 on: November 14, 2009, 02:31:43 PM
+100 to Emily

The difference between "insurance" and "Healthcare" is somewhat akin to the difference between "Learning" and "Being Taught". Some people are completely incapable of "learning", no matter how much they are taught.

And Melissa is right of course - it's absolutely vital that we need to be able to see the doctor the moment we define the need. It's un-American that we should suffer a sore throat for a couple of days until it (gasp) goes away by itself. I mean just look at those countries where socialized medicine is in place - why they're all walking around with pink eye, open wounds, suppurating pustules, cancer, and untended rheumatoid arthritis, because they can't get to the doctor quickly enough, even i they do have overactive bladder.

Much better to be in a system where the drug companies advertise openly to patients, where doctors over-prescribe drugs and tests for fear of being sued, where communities are without access to specialties because of liability insurance and where it's perfectly OK to advertise (and take) Tylenol for arthritis "pain" (and hence - allow one to continue ramping up the joint destruction by using the diseased joint).

OK enough with the sarcasm. It's giving me restless brain syndrome. The sad thing is that people speak as if there is no scope for private medicine in a public system and this is of course Republican fear-mongering bullshit. Does anyone honestly think that there would be no doctors willing to make extra $$$ by tending privately to those wealthy enough or stupid enough to demand being seen ahead of the "queue"? Wow sorry I think you must have forgotten this is America. There is private medicine in every country where there's a public system.  The main difference I see is that those without jobs, their children, people in shitty little minimum wage jobs, the disabled, seniors, those with long term conditions etc ad nausem would get healthcare and proper follow-up prescription meds without worrying about the cost.

Now, some would argue that it's wrong for the government to raise the funding for this through taxation because yes,  that's where the money would have to come from. I believe the opposite. I believe that this is exactly the sort of thing taxation should be spent on, because it takes tax gathered and uses it for the good of everyone in the country, rich or poor, black or white, Faithful or Aethiest, simply because they are Americans. I do firmly believe that much of the money could come from a reduction in military spending and neo-colonial adventurism (how much would we save by closing the base in Okinawa that's been in the news recently for example - the Japanese don't want it there - how would we be reacting if this was , say a Russian base in, say, Georgia?). I also believe that it should never be the responsibility of employers to pay for an employee's healthcare, because this does cost jobs in the end.

THe trouble in my mind with the present highly polarized argument is that in the end it denies that we are any sort of society whatsoever and illustrates a failure to move beyond the frontier mentality of grab, hold and fear. Itis not that I don't see these arguments, I just completely disagree with them. It's so selfish to treat one's fellow humans as if we had no collective responsibility -fuck, people, even hyaenas treat their pack-mates better than that.

Hippety Hop, It\\\\\\\'s Pippety Pop. I have guns...and...I give instruction..


Offline Lois

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Reply #155 on: November 14, 2009, 05:55:06 PM
I wish I had more to cite to back up my statement.  But, my counterparts within my company in Canada don't feel that way.  I have one acquaintance who moved up in the company allowing him to relocate to Dallas.  For him, his biggest benefit was the ability to get better and more immediate health care for his daughter.  In Canada, she would wait for long periods when appointments were established.  This is for a special needs child.  How would it be less urgent needs?

I can get my girls into their doctor usually on the same day and never past the next day.  I can't imagine them having to wait for a week, let alone several weeks or months for basic health care.

No matter where you go there will be people for whom the system does not work as it should.  If you want to talk about long wait times I can give you a story ...

January of last year my company decided to drop KAISER in favor of Blue Cross/Blue Shield.  So I had to see new doctors to get my prescriptions renewed.  My prescription for Birth Control was easy, but my medicine for Acid Reflux was not so easy.  The earliest available appointment was January 2010!  So while waiting my stomach got worse and worse.  The ulcer came back and I ended up in the Emergency room in September.  It was there that I finally got my prescription renewed.  Geeshe!

There are also stories of Canadians who go to the U.S. for treatment for certain conditions.  This just goes to prove that if you have money you can get health care out of the system.  I used to see an OB/GYN that did not accept insurance.  I had to pay up-front and submit the bills to my insurance company afterward.  I had to pay at a higher rate because the Doc was "Out of Network", but I didn't mind because the Doc was so much cheaper than anyone else anyways.  (It seems hiring an individual in a doctors office to deal with insurance is very expensive.)  Also because the doctor was Out of Network I was not competing with the masses for a limited number of appointment slots.  I could often call and be seen the same day.  It is such a pity that I moved away from the area...




Offline Grm

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Reply #156 on: November 14, 2009, 08:56:19 PM
I wish I had more to cite to back up my statement.  But, my counterparts within my company in Canada don't feel that way.  I have one acquaintance who moved up in the company allowing him to relocate to Dallas.  For him, his biggest benefit was the ability to get better and more immediate health care for his daughter.  In Canada, she would wait for long periods when appointments were established.  This is for a special needs child.  How would it be less urgent needs?

I can get my girls into their doctor usually on the same day and never past the next day.  I can't imagine them having to wait for a week, let alone several weeks or months for basic health care.

No matter where you go there will be people for whom the system does not work as it should.  If you want to talk about long wait times I can give you a story ...

January of last year my company decided to drop KAISER in favor of Blue Cross/Blue Shield.  So I had to see new doctors to get my prescriptions renewed.  My prescription for Birth Control was easy, but my medicine for Acid Reflux was not so easy.  The earliest available appointment was January 2010!  So while waiting my stomach got worse and worse.  The ulcer came back and I ended up in the Emergency room in September.  It was there that I finally got my prescription renewed.  Geeshe!

That  I could often call and be seen the same day. 


England 2009
Prescriptions are free if you have a long term health condition, or you are on income support or over 65. Otherwise its £7.20 per item.
I can always see a doctor on the day I call.
I can pay if I want to see a specialist, who will see me within a 2 weeks, after that my treatment will be free unless I elect for room service. If I don't wish to pay I might have to wait 3-6 months to see a specialist.



Melissa

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Reply #157 on: November 14, 2009, 10:15:24 PM
I've had Blue Cross in the past.  I can't imagine why it would take several months to see a specialist.  And, most any internist should be able to address acid reflux.  I'm puzzled by that.



Offline Lois

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Reply #158 on: November 14, 2009, 10:53:22 PM
The doc I saw felt uncomfortable writing a script for such a powerful medicine for acid reflux, and wanted me to see a specialist to get "scoped again first". 

I suspect a lot of the problem has to do with the medical network you have also.  I picked the UCSF network because it is close to work.  I could have picked a network closer to home like Sutter or NorthBay, but that would mean taking a whole day off work to see the Doc.



Offline ebilbob

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Reply #159 on: November 15, 2009, 10:21:58 PM
Now answer my questions.

Sure... after you answer this one:

Quote
Quote from: Melissa on November 11, 2009, 12:47:34 AM
Bubba Bob, before I further entertain your nonsense, tell me when the FY2009 budget was written?

I accept your surrender and admission of incompetence.