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Offline Dusty1961

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Reply #120 on: October 31, 2009, 12:38:03 AM
1. Yes. Just like them. Btw, why do you know those names? Could it be because it's so rare for families of privilege to actually work for the benefit of people who don't have as much as they do that they become instantly famous as targets of the rest of the moneyed and powerful?

How do I know those names? Who doesn’t know those names? They’re examples of the people you were talking about - those born with silver spoons in their mouths, did nothing to earn the wealth they were born into, and use that wealth to perpetuate their own power. They don’t give a sniff about people with less than they have, and only work for those with less when it benefits them – either monetarily or politically. Don’t kid yourself – they really don’t give a damned whether you or I disappear from the face of this planet.

2. I was specifically referring to the good ole' boy network that propped up a drunken cocaine addict through every failed business he ran and finally decided that he was too stupid to succeed in business so they made him governor of Texas. After that it was only a short step and a couple of stolen elections to make him a 2 term president. If being handed a presidency after demonstrating conclusively that your only qualification is that you are stupid enough to be easily manipulated and stubborn enough to do the wrong thing no matter how many people tell you to reconsider isn't a perfect example of privilege, there probably isn't one. I mean even Paris Hilton had to suck cock on a video to claim her place in the sun. Bush only had to do it in the offices of all his daddy's buddies.

That’s who I thought you were alluding to – I just wanted you to state it. I’m not even going to try to address your statements because you’ve demonstrated that your mind is made up, and that’s that. Ok, cool – no worries. But I do have to ask you; why so bitter? News flash – Bush is gone – your guy won. It’s done and over with. All is supposed to be sweetness and light – the lion is supposed to be lying with the lamb – we’re supposed to be on the threshold of the social utopia that was to be the result of “change we could believe in.” The air is supposed to be cleaner and taste sweeter. The birds are supposed to be chirping just a bit louder. The rainbows are supposed to be just a bit more vibrant. And the anointed one was supposed to take care of all of our needs. It ain’t happenin’, is it? You folks on the left are going to have to realize that Bush is gone, and there’s going to come a time when you simply can’t blame him for all of your problems, just as the right had to forget about Bill Clinton and stop blaming him for all of their problems.

For the record, I was never a big Bush fan or supporter to begin with. He did some things I supported, but he did a lot more that I didn’t support. Yes I did vote for him twice, but I didn’t so much vote for Bush as I voted against John Kerry and that turnip Al Gore (talk about a potential national disaster – he would have made the absolute failure that was the Carter presidency look like a walk in the park.) Still, neither he, nor any other president, is the cause of my problems, and at the end of the day, it doesn’t really matter who is in the white house. I didn’t lose any sleep under Clinton or Bush, and I certainly don’t plan on losing any sleep under Obama. And yeah – the birth certificate people need to get over it – he’s the president, ok? Grow up, will ya?

3. What does the mismanaged financial recovery plan have to do with how we got there? If someone slices open my femoral artery, I don't think anyone is going to blame the guy who doesn't know how to apply a tourniquet if I bleed to death (well, some people would, but they're fucking idiots). They'd blame the guy who caused the actual damage. But I guess if you can't argue the point, you just try to change the topic. Take your strategy from the RNC playbook much?

Actually, I don’t take anything from the RNC or DNC – I’m neither a Republican nor a Democrat. I refuse to be a water boy for any political party whose only interest is the perpetuation of their power, so I’m not a member of any party. And let’s be honest here – it doesn’t matter whether you’re on the left or the right, you know deep down inside that that’s all the two major political parties are really interested in – power.

I obliquely asked you what the “mismanaged financial recovery plan” had to do with how we got there. I mean, you brought it up. Yes it was horribly mismanaged – it was, after all, proposed, administrated, and managed by the government. [sarcasm] Hmmm… A mismanaged government program. Imagine that. Whodathunkit?  [/sarcasm] And people wonder why I don’t want some government bureaucrat in charge of my healthcare.

As far as how we really got there is concerned, do a bit of research for yourself – you won’t like the answer. And I can debate you all day long on the issue because I have the facts on my side. It’s all a matter of public record, available to anyone online by going to the House of Representatives website and the Senate website, and doing a bit of looking in the archives. I could do it for you and present my case, but it’s a lot more meaningful if you do it on your own. See, that’s a fundamental difference between me and several others (not specifically you, ebilbob – nothing personal here, ok?)  that I’ve seen post on this and other political forums – and that is that I don’t believe a damned thing the gov’t tells me, and I believe damned little the press tells me. I check it out for myself. I do the research, and form an opinion based on my own due diligence. I don’t always get it right – I’ve found lots of supplemental sources that had information I had never seen before, and that info has, at times, made me change my opinion. I encourage everyone reading this and any of my other posts to do the same thing. Don’t believe a word I say – check it out yourself. It’s by doing that that we become an informed electorate, and the politician’s worst nightmare. I don’t pay attention to a 10-second sound bite taken from a 30-minute speech. I want to hear the entire speech – and so should you. I don’t listen to a damned thing any politician of any party says – I check out their actions and voting records. Those actions and voting records are a matter of public record, and can be easily found if you truly want to look for them.

In your femoral artery analogy, you say that people would blame the guy who caused the actual damage. Ok, I think we would both agree that that would be the logical thing to do. Problem is, too many people are either associated with, supporters of, or beholden to the guy (or in this case people) who did the actual damage - they refuse to admit their guy did it. So, as a result, everyone starts pointing fingers in different directions - anything to focus attention everywhere but upon themselves. Don’t get me wrong, both sides do it. It’s an ingrained “inside the beltway” defense mechanism – something that’s either a learned pattern of behavior, or in the water of Washington DC. That’s just another of the many reasons why I don’t trust a thing any politician says.

I realize that people have lives, so they don’t want to spend a lot of time looking into an issue. Fine – hey, I have a life too, believe it or not. But if I’m going to step into a voting booth, I think it’s my responsibility to know a little something about what I’m voting on. And if I’m going to inject myself into a political debate, I’d better have sources and facts to back me up if I’m going to successfully defend my position.

Far too often, however, people are satisfied with what the media spoon-feeds them, so consequently, that’s all they’ll ever know. Remember one thing – you only know what the media (no matter the source) wants you to know. People just don’t take the time to learn even the basics. Consequently we have college students walking the streets who don’t even know who the vice-president is, let alone which state of the US has a unicameral legislature. We’re really dumbing ourselves down here. That’s scary.

Now I know that the above probably isn’t a satisfactory answer to your questions. Sorry that I don’t want to play “swap-the-insult” with you or anyone else here on the board. I don’t have time for that, and it never really interested me to begin with. I’ll defend any position I’ve taken, and defend an opinion or idea that I support. I’ll also admit it if I’m wrong. I don’t get personal because at the end of the day, it’s just politics, and the sun is gonna set tonight and rise in the morning regardless of who is in charge in Washington. So, again, nothing personal – it’s just politics. Life goes on…

I'm the one your mother warned you about...


Offline Dusty1961

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Reply #121 on: October 31, 2009, 01:36:51 AM
Dusty,

Well stated e-novel. Let the people keep more of their money and stimulate our economy. Fine in theory but right now, people are saving any extra money they have for fear of job loss, cutback of hours, etc. For years economists have chided the American people for not saving money. Now they are worried that because people are saving money, the exact notion you have stipulated in your post is not happening. Plus the government is spending like there is no tomorrow, all the while taking in less revenue.  Until the average person has some assurances that their jobs are relatively safe, discretionary spending will be very limited and our economy, if it does recover, will recover at a much slower pace then expected. Only my opinion though.


You’re absolutely right in everything you said above, Watcher – as far as you went. If you remember, economists were also downright alarmed at the amount of credit people were using to buy things with, and the fact that people just weren’t paying it back – or if they were, they were making the minimum payments, which is just basically interest on the principal.

Everyone reading this knows someone who makes $20,000 a year or less who has a computer, wide-screen TV, Play Station (or something similar,) a cell phone, and a whole boat-load of other goodies and gadgets. These folks are now so deeply in debt that they’ve basically mortgaged the next 15 years of their lives in the name of instant gratification and having the coolest toys.

You’re right – a lot more people are saving their money, but they’re also getting the idea that they have to pay down the debt they generated a few years ago. (Although some are just walking away from that debt, and letting their credit ratings suffer for it.) Another thing to consider is the fact that the so-called “Bush tax cuts” are due to expire soon, and (anecdotally) I know more than a couple of people who are saving up for the first tax bill after they expire – myself included. In fact, the only investment I’ve even considered over the last couple of years is the manufacturers of red ink – just the government can keep those businesses going for the rest of our lifetimes…

A lot of people bought houses they couldn’t afford, and they’re either being foreclosed on, or are walking away from those homes and renting houses for half of their mortgage payments – again, credit rating be damned. Let’s be honest here as well – while it’s true that some people face foreclosure through no fault of their own (my next-door neighbor is a heavy equipment operator, and he lost his house because he worked for a total of 3 months in 2008,) more than just a few bought more house than they could afford. A huge number of people entered into Adjustable Rate Mortgages, lured by incredibly low initial interest rates, only to discover that 4 or 5 years later that their mortgage payments doubled.

The construction industry has basically collapsed, the travel industry is stagnant, and the service industries are suffering, as I described in my earlier post.

So yeah – folks are being cautions with their money, and rightfully so (some would argue that it’s about time.) That just further proves my point that a tax increase of any kind right now (to include the expiration of the “Bush tax cuts”) would be disastrous. It’s just historical fact that you can’t tax your way out of a depression or a recession – all that’ll do is deepen it.

You’re correct that the government is spending like there is no tomorrow. And let’s be honest here – that didn’t start in January when Obama took office. It didn’t even start under Bush or Clinton. My opinion is that the reckless abandon with which government is now spending actually started during the first Bush presidency (George H.W. Bush, for those of you who are keeping score.) It kind of slowed down under Clinton (and believe me when I say that nobody is more shocked than I am that I just typed that,) but the jury is still out on whether it was Clinton who did that or the Republican-led congress. I really don’t have an opinion, because I think both are major factors.

The one thing I’m sad about is that congress finally voted on a “Balanced Budget Amendment,” in 1993 and it was voted down. They really had a chance to end the days of deficit spending that each side of the aisle blames the other for, and they blew it. Now, with the Democrats firmly in power in both houses and in the White House, we’re heading back to the Carter “tax and spend” days. We can only hope that all of the politicians on both sides of the aisle have an overnight epiphany and stop spending $5 for every $1 they collect in revenue, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Now I do think that Obama had one great idea during the election, and that was the rebuilding of our infrastructure. I’m still waiting for that to happen, and to be honest, I haven’t heard much about it since Election Day. What happened to all of the “shovel-ready” projects and all of those construction jobs we were promised during the campaign? I know that my former next-door neighbor (mentioned above) is chomping at the bit to get back to work. Once again, it seems that a politician made a lot of promises he had no intention of keeping in order to get elected. It’s sad really. If he’d have kept this particular promise, it could have set the tone for his presidency, and I firmly believe he’d be facing a lot less opposition to some of his other proposals.

To get back to the original topic of this thread, a mandatory gov’t-run healthcare program would only dig us deeper into the hole – and we’re already so deep, we can’t see the sunlight at the surface.

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Melissa

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Reply #122 on: October 31, 2009, 07:41:34 AM

One could argue equal access issues on that basis though I don't believe it has ever happen.  Either way, a flat tax or the FairTax could be written to eliminate all but the most basic deductions such as home mortgage.  With the FairTax, there are no deductions at all.  Everyone is absolutely equal and the low income/no income individuals will be better off.



Offline Dusty1961

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Reply #123 on: October 31, 2009, 04:36:50 PM

One could argue equal access issues on that basis though I don't believe it has ever happen.  Either way, a flat tax or the FairTax could be written to eliminate all but the most basic deductions such as home mortgage.  With the FairTax, there are no deductions at all.  Everyone is absolutely equal and the low income/no income individuals will be better off.

One could argue equal access issues on what basis? Please explain. I'm not trying to be flip here, I'd really like to know what you mean.

I'll admit that I'm not really up to speed on the flat tax or Fair Tax subject. I know Steve Forbes is a big proponent of it, and said as much during his bid for the presidency a few years back, but that's about all. I really don't think the congress will ever be interested in that big an overhaul of our tax structure though - simply because, to their way of thinking, it'll eliminate too many sources of revenue. I know we can both point out several instances in everyday life where the same money is taxed two, three, or even four times. They're not going to give up that money - not without a major fight anyway.

It's a rare thing indeed to see the government eliminate a tax - no matter how temporary it was originally intended to be. While you and I (and everyone else on this board) might think a Fair Tax is the way to go, ultimately it's the congress that has to be convinced - and I just don't see that happening in the real world.

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Offline NonDairy

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Reply #124 on: October 31, 2009, 06:27:34 PM
Dusty,

Well stated e-novel. Let the people keep more of their money and stimulate our economy. Fine in theory but right now, people are saving any extra money they have for fear of job loss, cutback of hours, etc. For years economists have chided the American people for not saving money. Now they are worried that because people are saving money, the exact notion you have stipulated in your post is not happening. Plus the government is spending like there is no tomorrow, all the while taking in less revenue.  Until the average person has some assurances that their jobs are relatively safe, discretionary spending will be very limited and our economy, if it does recover, will recover at a much slower pace then expected. Only my opinion though.

No, agreed.
Trickle-down economics would be a wonderful thing if we could pass a law that people over a certain income level weren't allowed to use banks.
Giving the top tax brackets more of their money back only works if they don't plan on saving their money. Or if financial institutions start buying boats.

"I'd rather let a thousand guilty men go free than chase after them." - C.W.


Offline ebilbob

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Reply #125 on: October 31, 2009, 09:45:07 PM


How do I know those names? Who doesn’t know those names? They’re examples of the people you were talking about - those born with silver spoons in their mouths, did nothing to earn the wealth they were born into, and use that wealth to perpetuate their own power. They don’t give a sniff about people with less than they have, and only work for those with less when it benefits them – either monetarily or politically. Don’t kid yourself – they really don’t give a damned whether you or I disappear from the face of this planet.

And yet you didn't bring up any of the countless right wingers born with silver spoons in their mouths. I don't disagree with your assessment of how the privileged have hijacked this nation's resources for their own benefit. I just think it's funny that you, who claim no political affiliation, only chose to bring up specific examples of rich families that lean left.



That’s who I thought you were alluding to – I just wanted you to state it. I’m not even going to try to address your statements because you’ve demonstrated that your mind is made up, and that’s that. Ok, cool – no worries. But I do have to ask you; why so bitter? News flash – Bush is gone – your guy won. It’s done and over with. All is supposed to be sweetness and light – the lion is supposed to be lying with the lamb – we’re supposed to be on the threshold of the social utopia that was to be the result of “change we could believe in.” The air is supposed to be cleaner and taste sweeter. The birds are supposed to be chirping just a bit louder. The rainbows are supposed to be just a bit more vibrant. And the anointed one was supposed to take care of all of our needs. It ain’t happenin’, is it? You folks on the left are going to have to realize that Bush is gone, and there’s going to come a time when you simply can’t blame him for all of your problems, just as the right had to forget about Bill Clinton and stop blaming him for all of their problems.

For the record, I was never a big Bush fan or supporter to begin with. He did some things I supported, but he did a lot more that I didn’t support. Yes I did vote for him twice, but I didn’t so much vote for Bush as I voted against John Kerry and that turnip Al Gore (talk about a potential national disaster – he would have made the absolute failure that was the Carter presidency look like a walk in the park.) Still, neither he, nor any other president, is the cause of my problems, and at the end of the day, it doesn’t really matter who is in the white house. I didn’t lose any sleep under Clinton or Bush, and I certainly don’t plan on losing any sleep under Obama. And yeah – the birth certificate people need to get over it – he’s the president, ok? Grow up, will ya?

I'm bitter because electing Obama didn't un-kill my friends that died in Iraq. And most of them died after the 2004 election. An election in which there is evidence proving that the RNC engaged in voter fraud that won Ohio (and as a result, the election) for Bush.

I'm also not sure why you think that as an Obama supporter, I thought the world would be Care Bears and lollipops after his election. The dead are still dead. The towers are still down. The economy is still in shock as it recovers from rape and the Constitution is still torn at the fringes where greed and self-importance were allowed to gnaw away unchecked for 6 years with little done to reverse the damage since then.

I can blame the Bush administration for everything they did. And that's what I blame them, and him for. Not some nebulous fall-out from his actions. I blame him for ignoring the intel that warned him of an impending attack on the United States by a credible threat from within Al Qaeda. I blame him for starting a war of aggression and sacrificing thousands of American lives in the name of corporate profit and war profiteering. I blame him for setting health education back 20 years and increasing the rate of teen pregnancy and STD transmission for the first time since the last time a Republican held office. I blame him for a generation of young people who will be inadequately prepared for careers in life sciences because they were taught that evolution is a myth and the world was created with equal parts Godfart and Jesusjuice in a fucking science classroom. I blame him for using religion bias to alienate American citizens in order to win votes. I blame him for calling American citizens traitors for disagreeing with his actions. I blame him for knowingly breaking the law, admitting to it and continuing to do so. I blame him for setting this nation's foreign relations back to levels of negativity not seen since we left Vietnam and in doing so endangering American lives. I blame him for foreign policy that fueled the most successful recruiting drive for terrorist organizations in history and allowed Al Qaeda to become a financially self-sustaining entity, no longer dependent on support of any rogue nation to continue terrorist activities globally. I blame him for pulling resources from Afghanistan and diverting them to Iraq to pursue a personal agenda and allowing the Taliban and Al Qaeda to regroup and entrench, which will cost us more American lives with almost no chance of success now. I blame him for what he did. So fuck you for making light of my bitterness. Fuck you for pretending that the last 8 years is something that can be rectified in 10 months. Fuck you period, you fucking pretender. If you knew half of what you claim to know, I wouldn't have to tell you any of this shit. So you keep patting yourself on the back for doing your own research and while you're at it, why don't you explain to yourself how, if you're so smart, you don't seem to know fuck-all about fuck-all.



Actually, I don’t take anything from the RNC or DNC – I’m neither a Republican nor a Democrat. I refuse to be a water boy for any political party whose only interest is the perpetuation of their power, so I’m not a member of any party. And let’s be honest here – it doesn’t matter whether you’re on the left or the right, you know deep down inside that that’s all the two major political parties are really interested in – power.

I obliquely asked you what the “mismanaged financial recovery plan” had to do with how we got there. I mean, you brought it up. Yes it was horribly mismanaged – it was, after all, proposed, administrated, and managed by the government. [sarcasm] Hmmm… A mismanaged government program. Imagine that. Whodathunkit?  [/sarcasm] And people wonder why I don’t want some government bureaucrat in charge of my healthcare.

As far as how we really got there is concerned, do a bit of research for yourself – you won’t like the answer. And I can debate you all day long on the issue because I have the facts on my side. It’s all a matter of public record, available to anyone online by going to the House of Representatives website and the Senate website, and doing a bit of looking in the archives. I could do it for you and present my case, but it’s a lot more meaningful if you do it on your own. See, that’s a fundamental difference between me and several others (not specifically you, ebilbob – nothing personal here, ok?)  that I’ve seen post on this and other political forums – and that is that I don’t believe a damned thing the gov’t tells me, and I believe damned little the press tells me. I check it out for myself. I do the research, and form an opinion based on my own due diligence. I don’t always get it right – I’ve found lots of supplemental sources that had information I had never seen before, and that info has, at times, made me change my opinion. I encourage everyone reading this and any of my other posts to do the same thing. Don’t believe a word I say – check it out yourself. It’s by doing that that we become an informed electorate, and the politician’s worst nightmare. I don’t pay attention to a 10-second sound bite taken from a 30-minute speech. I want to hear the entire speech – and so should you. I don’t listen to a damned thing any politician of any party says – I check out their actions and voting records. Those actions and voting records are a matter of public record, and can be easily found if you truly want to look for them.

In your femoral artery analogy, you say that people would blame the guy who caused the actual damage. Ok, I think we would both agree that that would be the logical thing to do. Problem is, too many people are either associated with, supporters of, or beholden to the guy (or in this case people) who did the actual damage - they refuse to admit their guy did it. So, as a result, everyone starts pointing fingers in different directions - anything to focus attention everywhere but upon themselves. Don’t get me wrong, both sides do it. It’s an ingrained “inside the beltway” defense mechanism – something that’s either a learned pattern of behavior, or in the water of Washington DC. That’s just another of the many reasons why I don’t trust a thing any politician says.

I realize that people have lives, so they don’t want to spend a lot of time looking into an issue. Fine – hey, I have a life too, believe it or not. But if I’m going to step into a voting booth, I think it’s my responsibility to know a little something about what I’m voting on. And if I’m going to inject myself into a political debate, I’d better have sources and facts to back me up if I’m going to successfully defend my position.

Far too often, however, people are satisfied with what the media spoon-feeds them, so consequently, that’s all they’ll ever know. Remember one thing – you only know what the media (no matter the source) wants you to know. People just don’t take the time to learn even the basics. Consequently we have college students walking the streets who don’t even know who the vice-president is, let alone which state of the US has a unicameral legislature. We’re really dumbing ourselves down here. That’s scary.

Now I know that the above probably isn’t a satisfactory answer to your questions. Sorry that I don’t want to play “swap-the-insult” with you or anyone else here on the board. I don’t have time for that, and it never really interested me to begin with. I’ll defend any position I’ve taken, and defend an opinion or idea that I support. I’ll also admit it if I’m wrong. I don’t get personal because at the end of the day, it’s just politics, and the sun is gonna set tonight and rise in the morning regardless of who is in charge in Washington. So, again, nothing personal – it’s just politics. Life goes on…

If you don't want something to be taken personally, don't fucking lecture me on how to research my voting choices and absolutely don't pretend like you've got some unique insight into the issues that are important to me because you "researched" it yourself, you smug little cunt.

I double-dog dare you to tell me a single thing I don't already know about how we arrived at the financial state we're in right now. But feel free to stand behind some cryptic "I'd tell you but I want you to do the research yourself" lame fucking cowardly bullshit like a 12 year old that just got an A in social studies and thinks he knows all there is to know about the world. You don't know every variable that played into the economic crash any more than I do, but the simple fact of the matter is that it boils down to two things: A economic system that pulled money from the consumer without increasing consumer income to accommodate the increased outflow and a bunch of fucking children left to play with our financial system without oversight or regulation who thought they could create money through a series of tricks on a balance ledger rather than by adding value to the economy. The financial system is an easy fix. Pump more money into it to fill the void of value. That's why the markets are up. We as taxpayers paid the balance due. The economy is fucked because our industry has all been outsourced by a government that rewarded corporations for eliminating American jobs and we have no real way to increase the purchasing power of the American consumer now that the piggy bank that was the real estate market finally broke open and a moth flew out. That's why real unemployment is going to stay above 10% for at least the next 5 years and probably the next 10.

Your statement about not wanting a government bureaucrat managing your healthcare shows how willfully uninformed you already are. Like you don't have a corporation already determining what healthcare you do and don't qualify for based on a profit margin. Either that or you're already in a government-managed system. And to top it all off, you don't understand the definition of the word "option." That's not a great testament to your much-vaunted research skills. Try Miriam-Webster online to start.

And finally, I don't have any questions for you so don't think that I'm waiting on you to answer anything. If I want information, I'll go to an informed source and not go looking for insight on a fringe-porn message board. You are not the voice of information to which the hungry turn for mental nourishment. You're just another asshole who thinks he knows something about something like the rest of us.

The only thing that makes you different is that your grammar is better than most people that are as wrong as you are, which means you're not stupid, you're delusional. Also not particularly special.



Offline watcher1

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Reply #126 on: October 31, 2009, 10:09:52 PM
If I want information, I'll go to an informed source and not go looking for insight on a fringe-porn message board.


Gee, all along I thought we here at kb were feeding both brains - the small one and the big one.  ;D

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Melissa

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Reply #127 on: November 01, 2009, 01:40:48 AM

One could argue equal access issues on that basis though I don't believe it has ever happen.  Either way, a flat tax or the FairTax could be written to eliminate all but the most basic deductions such as home mortgage.  With the FairTax, there are no deductions at all.  Everyone is absolutely equal and the low income/no income individuals will be better off.

One could argue equal access issues on what basis? Please explain. I'm not trying to be flip here, I'd really like to know what you mean.

I'll admit that I'm not really up to speed on the flat tax or Fair Tax subject. I know Steve Forbes is a big proponent of it, and said as much during his bid for the presidency a few years back, but that's about all. I really don't think the congress will ever be interested in that big an overhaul of our tax structure though - simply because, to their way of thinking, it'll eliminate too many sources of revenue. I know we can both point out several instances in everyday life where the same money is taxed two, three, or even four times. They're not going to give up that money - not without a major fight anyway.

It's a rare thing indeed to see the government eliminate a tax - no matter how temporary it was originally intended to be. While you and I (and everyone else on this board) might think a Fair Tax is the way to go, ultimately it's the congress that has to be convinced - and I just don't see that happening in the real world.

The higher income person is forced to pay a greater percentage of their income in taxes yet their level of access to government is the same.  In private enterprise, the more you pay the more you get.  Then, there are those who pay absolutely nothing or worse, get back refundable credits.  Yet, they have the same access as one who pays upwards of 50% of their income in taxes to various levels of government.

With regard to the FairTax, check out this site:  http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer

It's a basic concept but truly is fair as it eliminates all payroll taxes at all levels including personal and corporate.



Melissa

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Reply #128 on: November 01, 2009, 01:44:50 AM
Giving the top tax brackets more of their money back only works if they don't plan on saving their money. Or if financial institutions start buying boats.

The wealthy buy more and use more.  Recall the luxury tax on yachts and such?  That went over quite well when it caused damage to an industry that then began laying off workers.  Buyers were going overseas for their products.

Then, there are those who reinvest in their business to expand, using more product from their suppliers and hiring more employees, all of which grows the economy.



Melissa

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Reply #129 on: November 01, 2009, 01:46:51 AM
Bush is responsible for the attack from intel he didn't use?  Interesting.

What about that policy under the Clinton administration that precluded the CIA and FBI from sharing information?  I won't get into the beliefs of why that took place.



Offline NonDairy

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Reply #130 on: November 01, 2009, 01:57:30 AM
The higher income person is forced to pay a greater percentage of their income in taxes yet their level of access to government is the same.
That's a steaming load of crap. Money absolutely can buy access to government. Fundraising dinners, as just one example.

Here's an idea - every time you decide to type something, stop and think, "Are there any arguments that might poke a hole in this claim that just popped into my head?" Then, if there are, maybe don't say it.

"I'd rather let a thousand guilty men go free than chase after them." - C.W.


Melissa

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Reply #131 on: November 01, 2009, 04:35:08 AM
The higher income person is forced to pay a greater percentage of their income in taxes yet their level of access to government is the same.
That's a steaming load of crap. Money absolutely can buy access to government. Fundraising dinners, as just one example.

That might apply if you've got close ties to politicians, have no ethics and your ideals agree with that politician.  But, what about the person who wants less government and holds high ethical standards?  That would describe my uncle.  I don't think there are any libertarians capable of offering the same level of access.



Offline Dusty1961

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Reply #132 on: November 01, 2009, 05:47:07 AM


How do I know those names? Who doesn’t know those names? They’re examples of the people you were talking about - those born with silver spoons in their mouths, did nothing to earn the wealth they were born into, and use that wealth to perpetuate their own power. They don’t give a sniff about people with less than they have, and only work for those with less when it benefits them – either monetarily or politically. Don’t kid yourself – they really don’t give a damned whether you or I disappear from the face of this planet.

And yet you didn't bring up any of the countless right wingers born with silver spoons in their mouths. I don't disagree with your assessment of how the privileged have hijacked this nation's resources for their own benefit. I just think it's funny that you, who claim no political affiliation, only chose to bring up specific examples of rich families that lean left.



That’s who I thought you were alluding to – I just wanted you to state it. I’m not even going to try to address your statements because you’ve demonstrated that your mind is made up, and that’s that. Ok, cool – no worries. But I do have to ask you; why so bitter? News flash – Bush is gone – your guy won. It’s done and over with. All is supposed to be sweetness and light – the lion is supposed to be lying with the lamb – we’re supposed to be on the threshold of the social utopia that was to be the result of “change we could believe in.” The air is supposed to be cleaner and taste sweeter. The birds are supposed to be chirping just a bit louder. The rainbows are supposed to be just a bit more vibrant. And the anointed one was supposed to take care of all of our needs. It ain’t happenin’, is it? You folks on the left are going to have to realize that Bush is gone, and there’s going to come a time when you simply can’t blame him for all of your problems, just as the right had to forget about Bill Clinton and stop blaming him for all of their problems.

For the record, I was never a big Bush fan or supporter to begin with. He did some things I supported, but he did a lot more that I didn’t support. Yes I did vote for him twice, but I didn’t so much vote for Bush as I voted against John Kerry and that turnip Al Gore (talk about a potential national disaster – he would have made the absolute failure that was the Carter presidency look like a walk in the park.) Still, neither he, nor any other president, is the cause of my problems, and at the end of the day, it doesn’t really matter who is in the white house. I didn’t lose any sleep under Clinton or Bush, and I certainly don’t plan on losing any sleep under Obama. And yeah – the birth certificate people need to get over it – he’s the president, ok? Grow up, will ya?

I'm bitter because electing Obama didn't un-kill my friends that died in Iraq. And most of them died after the 2004 election. An election in which there is evidence proving that the RNC engaged in voter fraud that won Ohio (and as a result, the election) for Bush.

I'm also not sure why you think that as an Obama supporter, I thought the world would be Care Bears and lollipops after his election. The dead are still dead. The towers are still down. The economy is still in shock as it recovers from rape and the Constitution is still torn at the fringes where greed and self-importance were allowed to gnaw away unchecked for 6 years with little done to reverse the damage since then.

I can blame the Bush administration for everything they did. And that's what I blame them, and him for. Not some nebulous fall-out from his actions. I blame him for ignoring the intel that warned him of an impending attack on the United States by a credible threat from within Al Qaeda. I blame him for starting a war of aggression and sacrificing thousands of American lives in the name of corporate profit and war profiteering. I blame him for setting health education back 20 years and increasing the rate of teen pregnancy and STD transmission for the first time since the last time a Republican held office. I blame him for a generation of young people who will be inadequately prepared for careers in life sciences because they were taught that evolution is a myth and the world was created with equal parts Godfart and Jesusjuice in a fucking science classroom. I blame him for using religion bias to alienate American citizens in order to win votes. I blame him for calling American citizens traitors for disagreeing with his actions. I blame him for knowingly breaking the law, admitting to it and continuing to do so. I blame him for setting this nation's foreign relations back to levels of negativity not seen since we left Vietnam and in doing so endangering American lives. I blame him for foreign policy that fueled the most successful recruiting drive for terrorist organizations in history and allowed Al Qaeda to become a financially self-sustaining entity, no longer dependent on support of any rogue nation to continue terrorist activities globally. I blame him for pulling resources from Afghanistan and diverting them to Iraq to pursue a personal agenda and allowing the Taliban and Al Qaeda to regroup and entrench, which will cost us more American lives with almost no chance of success now. I blame him for what he did. So fuck you for making light of my bitterness. Fuck you for pretending that the last 8 years is something that can be rectified in 10 months. Fuck you period, you fucking pretender. If you knew half of what you claim to know, I wouldn't have to tell you any of this shit. So you keep patting yourself on the back for doing your own research and while you're at it, why don't you explain to yourself how, if you're so smart, you don't seem to know fuck-all about fuck-all.



Actually, I don’t take anything from the RNC or DNC – I’m neither a Republican nor a Democrat. I refuse to be a water boy for any political party whose only interest is the perpetuation of their power, so I’m not a member of any party. And let’s be honest here – it doesn’t matter whether you’re on the left or the right, you know deep down inside that that’s all the two major political parties are really interested in – power.

I obliquely asked you what the “mismanaged financial recovery plan” had to do with how we got there. I mean, you brought it up. Yes it was horribly mismanaged – it was, after all, proposed, administrated, and managed by the government. [sarcasm] Hmmm… A mismanaged government program. Imagine that. Whodathunkit?  [/sarcasm] And people wonder why I don’t want some government bureaucrat in charge of my healthcare.

As far as how we really got there is concerned, do a bit of research for yourself – you won’t like the answer. And I can debate you all day long on the issue because I have the facts on my side. It’s all a matter of public record, available to anyone online by going to the House of Representatives website and the Senate website, and doing a bit of looking in the archives. I could do it for you and present my case, but it’s a lot more meaningful if you do it on your own. See, that’s a fundamental difference between me and several others (not specifically you, ebilbob – nothing personal here, ok?)  that I’ve seen post on this and other political forums – and that is that I don’t believe a damned thing the gov’t tells me, and I believe damned little the press tells me. I check it out for myself. I do the research, and form an opinion based on my own due diligence. I don’t always get it right – I’ve found lots of supplemental sources that had information I had never seen before, and that info has, at times, made me change my opinion. I encourage everyone reading this and any of my other posts to do the same thing. Don’t believe a word I say – check it out yourself. It’s by doing that that we become an informed electorate, and the politician’s worst nightmare. I don’t pay attention to a 10-second sound bite taken from a 30-minute speech. I want to hear the entire speech – and so should you. I don’t listen to a damned thing any politician of any party says – I check out their actions and voting records. Those actions and voting records are a matter of public record, and can be easily found if you truly want to look for them.

In your femoral artery analogy, you say that people would blame the guy who caused the actual damage. Ok, I think we would both agree that that would be the logical thing to do. Problem is, too many people are either associated with, supporters of, or beholden to the guy (or in this case people) who did the actual damage - they refuse to admit their guy did it. So, as a result, everyone starts pointing fingers in different directions - anything to focus attention everywhere but upon themselves. Don’t get me wrong, both sides do it. It’s an ingrained “inside the beltway” defense mechanism – something that’s either a learned pattern of behavior, or in the water of Washington DC. That’s just another of the many reasons why I don’t trust a thing any politician says.

I realize that people have lives, so they don’t want to spend a lot of time looking into an issue. Fine – hey, I have a life too, believe it or not. But if I’m going to step into a voting booth, I think it’s my responsibility to know a little something about what I’m voting on. And if I’m going to inject myself into a political debate, I’d better have sources and facts to back me up if I’m going to successfully defend my position.

Far too often, however, people are satisfied with what the media spoon-feeds them, so consequently, that’s all they’ll ever know. Remember one thing – you only know what the media (no matter the source) wants you to know. People just don’t take the time to learn even the basics. Consequently we have college students walking the streets who don’t even know who the vice-president is, let alone which state of the US has a unicameral legislature. We’re really dumbing ourselves down here. That’s scary.

Now I know that the above probably isn’t a satisfactory answer to your questions. Sorry that I don’t want to play “swap-the-insult” with you or anyone else here on the board. I don’t have time for that, and it never really interested me to begin with. I’ll defend any position I’ve taken, and defend an opinion or idea that I support. I’ll also admit it if I’m wrong. I don’t get personal because at the end of the day, it’s just politics, and the sun is gonna set tonight and rise in the morning regardless of who is in charge in Washington. So, again, nothing personal – it’s just politics. Life goes on…

If you don't want something to be taken personally, don't fucking lecture me on how to research my voting choices and absolutely don't pretend like you've got some unique insight into the issues that are important to me because you "researched" it yourself, you smug little cunt.

I double-dog dare you to tell me a single thing I don't already know about how we arrived at the financial state we're in right now. But feel free to stand behind some cryptic "I'd tell you but I want you to do the research yourself" lame fucking cowardly bullshit like a 12 year old that just got an A in social studies and thinks he knows all there is to know about the world. You don't know every variable that played into the economic crash any more than I do, but the simple fact of the matter is that it boils down to two things: A economic system that pulled money from the consumer without increasing consumer income to accommodate the increased outflow and a bunch of fucking children left to play with our financial system without oversight or regulation who thought they could create money through a series of tricks on a balance ledger rather than by adding value to the economy. The financial system is an easy fix. Pump more money into it to fill the void of value. That's why the markets are up. We as taxpayers paid the balance due. The economy is fucked because our industry has all been outsourced by a government that rewarded corporations for eliminating American jobs and we have no real way to increase the purchasing power of the American consumer now that the piggy bank that was the real estate market finally broke open and a moth flew out. That's why real unemployment is going to stay above 10% for at least the next 5 years and probably the next 10.

Your statement about not wanting a government bureaucrat managing your healthcare shows how willfully uninformed you already are. Like you don't have a corporation already determining what healthcare you do and don't qualify for based on a profit margin. Either that or you're already in a government-managed system. And to top it all off, you don't understand the definition of the word "option." That's not a great testament to your much-vaunted research skills. Try Miriam-Webster online to start.

And finally, I don't have any questions for you so don't think that I'm waiting on you to answer anything. If I want information, I'll go to an informed source and not go looking for insight on a fringe-porn message board. You are not the voice of information to which the hungry turn for mental nourishment. You're just another asshole who thinks he knows something about something like the rest of us.

The only thing that makes you different is that your grammar is better than most people that are as wrong as you are, which means you're not stupid, you're delusional. Also not particularly special.


Feel better? I know I do...

I think we just had a moment, folks...

I'm the one your mother warned you about...


Offline ebilbob

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Reply #133 on: November 01, 2009, 12:01:15 PM


How do I know those names? Who doesn’t know those names? They’re examples of the people you were talking about - those born with silver spoons in their mouths, did nothing to earn the wealth they were born into, and use that wealth to perpetuate their own power. They don’t give a sniff about people with less than they have, and only work for those with less when it benefits them – either monetarily or politically. Don’t kid yourself – they really don’t give a damned whether you or I disappear from the face of this planet.

And yet you didn't bring up any of the countless right wingers born with silver spoons in their mouths. I don't disagree with your assessment of how the privileged have hijacked this nation's resources for their own benefit. I just think it's funny that you, who claim no political affiliation, only chose to bring up specific examples of rich families that lean left.



That’s who I thought you were alluding to – I just wanted you to state it. I’m not even going to try to address your statements because you’ve demonstrated that your mind is made up, and that’s that. Ok, cool – no worries. But I do have to ask you; why so bitter? News flash – Bush is gone – your guy won. It’s done and over with. All is supposed to be sweetness and light – the lion is supposed to be lying with the lamb – we’re supposed to be on the threshold of the social utopia that was to be the result of “change we could believe in.” The air is supposed to be cleaner and taste sweeter. The birds are supposed to be chirping just a bit louder. The rainbows are supposed to be just a bit more vibrant. And the anointed one was supposed to take care of all of our needs. It ain’t happenin’, is it? You folks on the left are going to have to realize that Bush is gone, and there’s going to come a time when you simply can’t blame him for all of your problems, just as the right had to forget about Bill Clinton and stop blaming him for all of their problems.

For the record, I was never a big Bush fan or supporter to begin with. He did some things I supported, but he did a lot more that I didn’t support. Yes I did vote for him twice, but I didn’t so much vote for Bush as I voted against John Kerry and that turnip Al Gore (talk about a potential national disaster – he would have made the absolute failure that was the Carter presidency look like a walk in the park.) Still, neither he, nor any other president, is the cause of my problems, and at the end of the day, it doesn’t really matter who is in the white house. I didn’t lose any sleep under Clinton or Bush, and I certainly don’t plan on losing any sleep under Obama. And yeah – the birth certificate people need to get over it – he’s the president, ok? Grow up, will ya?

I'm bitter because electing Obama didn't un-kill my friends that died in Iraq. And most of them died after the 2004 election. An election in which there is evidence proving that the RNC engaged in voter fraud that won Ohio (and as a result, the election) for Bush.

I'm also not sure why you think that as an Obama supporter, I thought the world would be Care Bears and lollipops after his election. The dead are still dead. The towers are still down. The economy is still in shock as it recovers from rape and the Constitution is still torn at the fringes where greed and self-importance were allowed to gnaw away unchecked for 6 years with little done to reverse the damage since then.

I can blame the Bush administration for everything they did. And that's what I blame them, and him for. Not some nebulous fall-out from his actions. I blame him for ignoring the intel that warned him of an impending attack on the United States by a credible threat from within Al Qaeda. I blame him for starting a war of aggression and sacrificing thousands of American lives in the name of corporate profit and war profiteering. I blame him for setting health education back 20 years and increasing the rate of teen pregnancy and STD transmission for the first time since the last time a Republican held office. I blame him for a generation of young people who will be inadequately prepared for careers in life sciences because they were taught that evolution is a myth and the world was created with equal parts Godfart and Jesusjuice in a fucking science classroom. I blame him for using religion bias to alienate American citizens in order to win votes. I blame him for calling American citizens traitors for disagreeing with his actions. I blame him for knowingly breaking the law, admitting to it and continuing to do so. I blame him for setting this nation's foreign relations back to levels of negativity not seen since we left Vietnam and in doing so endangering American lives. I blame him for foreign policy that fueled the most successful recruiting drive for terrorist organizations in history and allowed Al Qaeda to become a financially self-sustaining entity, no longer dependent on support of any rogue nation to continue terrorist activities globally. I blame him for pulling resources from Afghanistan and diverting them to Iraq to pursue a personal agenda and allowing the Taliban and Al Qaeda to regroup and entrench, which will cost us more American lives with almost no chance of success now. I blame him for what he did. So fuck you for making light of my bitterness. Fuck you for pretending that the last 8 years is something that can be rectified in 10 months. Fuck you period, you fucking pretender. If you knew half of what you claim to know, I wouldn't have to tell you any of this shit. So you keep patting yourself on the back for doing your own research and while you're at it, why don't you explain to yourself how, if you're so smart, you don't seem to know fuck-all about fuck-all.



Actually, I don’t take anything from the RNC or DNC – I’m neither a Republican nor a Democrat. I refuse to be a water boy for any political party whose only interest is the perpetuation of their power, so I’m not a member of any party. And let’s be honest here – it doesn’t matter whether you’re on the left or the right, you know deep down inside that that’s all the two major political parties are really interested in – power.

I obliquely asked you what the “mismanaged financial recovery plan” had to do with how we got there. I mean, you brought it up. Yes it was horribly mismanaged – it was, after all, proposed, administrated, and managed by the government. [sarcasm] Hmmm… A mismanaged government program. Imagine that. Whodathunkit?  [/sarcasm] And people wonder why I don’t want some government bureaucrat in charge of my healthcare.

As far as how we really got there is concerned, do a bit of research for yourself – you won’t like the answer. And I can debate you all day long on the issue because I have the facts on my side. It’s all a matter of public record, available to anyone online by going to the House of Representatives website and the Senate website, and doing a bit of looking in the archives. I could do it for you and present my case, but it’s a lot more meaningful if you do it on your own. See, that’s a fundamental difference between me and several others (not specifically you, ebilbob – nothing personal here, ok?)  that I’ve seen post on this and other political forums – and that is that I don’t believe a damned thing the gov’t tells me, and I believe damned little the press tells me. I check it out for myself. I do the research, and form an opinion based on my own due diligence. I don’t always get it right – I’ve found lots of supplemental sources that had information I had never seen before, and that info has, at times, made me change my opinion. I encourage everyone reading this and any of my other posts to do the same thing. Don’t believe a word I say – check it out yourself. It’s by doing that that we become an informed electorate, and the politician’s worst nightmare. I don’t pay attention to a 10-second sound bite taken from a 30-minute speech. I want to hear the entire speech – and so should you. I don’t listen to a damned thing any politician of any party says – I check out their actions and voting records. Those actions and voting records are a matter of public record, and can be easily found if you truly want to look for them.

In your femoral artery analogy, you say that people would blame the guy who caused the actual damage. Ok, I think we would both agree that that would be the logical thing to do. Problem is, too many people are either associated with, supporters of, or beholden to the guy (or in this case people) who did the actual damage - they refuse to admit their guy did it. So, as a result, everyone starts pointing fingers in different directions - anything to focus attention everywhere but upon themselves. Don’t get me wrong, both sides do it. It’s an ingrained “inside the beltway” defense mechanism – something that’s either a learned pattern of behavior, or in the water of Washington DC. That’s just another of the many reasons why I don’t trust a thing any politician says.

I realize that people have lives, so they don’t want to spend a lot of time looking into an issue. Fine – hey, I have a life too, believe it or not. But if I’m going to step into a voting booth, I think it’s my responsibility to know a little something about what I’m voting on. And if I’m going to inject myself into a political debate, I’d better have sources and facts to back me up if I’m going to successfully defend my position.

Far too often, however, people are satisfied with what the media spoon-feeds them, so consequently, that’s all they’ll ever know. Remember one thing – you only know what the media (no matter the source) wants you to know. People just don’t take the time to learn even the basics. Consequently we have college students walking the streets who don’t even know who the vice-president is, let alone which state of the US has a unicameral legislature. We’re really dumbing ourselves down here. That’s scary.

Now I know that the above probably isn’t a satisfactory answer to your questions. Sorry that I don’t want to play “swap-the-insult” with you or anyone else here on the board. I don’t have time for that, and it never really interested me to begin with. I’ll defend any position I’ve taken, and defend an opinion or idea that I support. I’ll also admit it if I’m wrong. I don’t get personal because at the end of the day, it’s just politics, and the sun is gonna set tonight and rise in the morning regardless of who is in charge in Washington. So, again, nothing personal – it’s just politics. Life goes on…

If you don't want something to be taken personally, don't fucking lecture me on how to research my voting choices and absolutely don't pretend like you've got some unique insight into the issues that are important to me because you "researched" it yourself, you smug little cunt.

I double-dog dare you to tell me a single thing I don't already know about how we arrived at the financial state we're in right now. But feel free to stand behind some cryptic "I'd tell you but I want you to do the research yourself" lame fucking cowardly bullshit like a 12 year old that just got an A in social studies and thinks he knows all there is to know about the world. You don't know every variable that played into the economic crash any more than I do, but the simple fact of the matter is that it boils down to two things: A economic system that pulled money from the consumer without increasing consumer income to accommodate the increased outflow and a bunch of fucking children left to play with our financial system without oversight or regulation who thought they could create money through a series of tricks on a balance ledger rather than by adding value to the economy. The financial system is an easy fix. Pump more money into it to fill the void of value. That's why the markets are up. We as taxpayers paid the balance due. The economy is fucked because our industry has all been outsourced by a government that rewarded corporations for eliminating American jobs and we have no real way to increase the purchasing power of the American consumer now that the piggy bank that was the real estate market finally broke open and a moth flew out. That's why real unemployment is going to stay above 10% for at least the next 5 years and probably the next 10.

Your statement about not wanting a government bureaucrat managing your healthcare shows how willfully uninformed you already are. Like you don't have a corporation already determining what healthcare you do and don't qualify for based on a profit margin. Either that or you're already in a government-managed system. And to top it all off, you don't understand the definition of the word "option." That's not a great testament to your much-vaunted research skills. Try Miriam-Webster online to start.

And finally, I don't have any questions for you so don't think that I'm waiting on you to answer anything. If I want information, I'll go to an informed source and not go looking for insight on a fringe-porn message board. You are not the voice of information to which the hungry turn for mental nourishment. You're just another asshole who thinks he knows something about something like the rest of us.

The only thing that makes you different is that your grammar is better than most people that are as wrong as you are, which means you're not stupid, you're delusional. Also not particularly special.


Feel better? I know I do...

I think we just had a moment, folks...

Yes, I do. Thanks for asking.

Cynicism is an easily assumed position to take when you don't have a substantive response, but next time try and be a little less trite and predictable. Oh, I know...tell me "I remember when I had MY first beer." Because no one has seen that one before either.  :roll:



Melissa

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Reply #134 on: November 03, 2009, 03:58:42 AM
Annual Medicare Fraud: $60 Billion; Annual Profits of Top Ten Insurance Companies: $8 billion

Quote
As 60 Minutes reported last week, Medicare fraud is rampant and has now replaced the cocaine (ahem) business as the major criminal activity in South Florida. Both 60 Minutes and the Washington Post report that Medicare fraud now costs American taxpayers roughly $60 billion a year. That may sound like a lot of money, but surely it pales next to the extraordinary profits of private insurance companies, right?
Well, let's see.... Last year, the profits of the ten largest insurance companies in America were just over $8 billion -- combined. No single insurance company made even five percent of what Medicare reportedly loses in fraud.

While we're making comparisons, in its real first ten years (2014-23), the Senate Finance Committee bill would cost $1.7 trillion. At the rate of last year's profits, the combined ten-year profits of America's ten largest insurance companies would be $83 billion -- five percent of the costs of the Senate Finance Committee bill. Eighty-three billion dollars may not buy you much in comparison with BaucusCare, but -- on the bright side -- that ten-year tally is somewhat more than what Medicare loses each year in fraud.

So, the next time someone alleges that government-run health care is cheaper because of "lower administrative costs" -- a truly preposterous claim on its surface -- these numbers would be good ones to have at the ready: $60 billion in annual Medicare fraud, $8 billion in combined annual profits for America's ten largest insurance companies.




Melissa

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Reply #135 on: November 03, 2009, 04:01:24 AM

As usual, Democrats love trial lawyers.

Pelosi Health Care Bill Blows a Kiss to Trial Lawyers



Offline Poppet

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Reply #136 on: November 05, 2009, 05:48:13 AM
It's the Richest COuntry in The World.

Children don't get vaccinated

The neo/perinatal mortality rate is worse than Poland's, 30th in the world.

thirtieth

People with arthritis have paracetamol as their best treatment option

I mean.... REALLY???????????

Get a grip. Let's have medicare/cade/what-the-fuck-ever, for EVERYONE.

I'm pissing tired of this "I'm not paying for Joe's hip replacement and Mary's abortion" attitude. We need universal healthcare, paid out of central taxation, now. Period.

And speaking of periods, if MEN had them, tampons would be free.

Pop

Hippety Hop, It\\\\\\\'s Pippety Pop. I have guns...and...I give instruction..


Offline watcher1

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Reply #137 on: November 05, 2009, 01:41:31 PM
It's the Richest COuntry in The World.

Children don't get vaccinated

The neo/perinatal mortality rate is worse than Poland's, 30th in the world.

thirtieth

People with arthritis have paracetamol as their best treatment option

I mean.... REALLY???????????

Get a grip. Let's have medicare/cade/what-the-fuck-ever, for EVERYONE.

I'm pissing tired of this "I'm not paying for Joe's hip replacement and Mary's abortion" attitude. We need universal healthcare, paid out of central taxation, now. Period.

And speaking of periods, if MEN had them, tampons would be free.

Pop

G.   You bring up a very good point.

Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds.


Offline Lois

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Reply #138 on: November 09, 2009, 07:11:13 AM
Providing Universal Health Care will be cheaper in the long run than the system we have now. Currently, those without insurance put off (and often cannot get) treatment until their condition is desperate, and VERY EXPENSIVE. Then YOU (meaning your tax dollars) still have to pay when they end up at the hospital and are unable to pay. Providing routine medical can catch many conditions and treat them early before they become catastrophically expensive.



Melissa

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Reply #139 on: November 09, 2009, 12:33:55 PM
I would suggest researching Medicare and what its stated cost would be over ten years.  Then, look at what it cost today.

Anyone who thinks socialized medicine is going to cost only a trillion dollars over ten years is living a pipe dream in Disney Land.