KRISTEN'S BOARD
Congratulations to 2024 Pervert of the Year Shiela_M and 2024 Author of the Year Writers Bloque!

News:

Scout Pride

Guest · 967

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

IdleBoast

  • Guest
on: June 25, 2016, 06:41:12 PM
In America, the Boy Scouts kick people out for being gay (or atheist).

In the UK, the Scouts join in gay pride marches, and have an LGBT-branded logo.

Go figure.

https://twitter.com/scouts/status/746739332011155457

http://members.scouts.org.uk/cms.php?pageid=3195





Offline MissBarbara

  • Burnt at the stake
  • *******
    • Posts: 16,195
    • Woos/Boos: +3193/-41
    • Gender: Female
Reply #1 on: June 25, 2016, 07:46:07 PM

In America, the Boy Scouts kick people out for being gay (or atheist).

In the UK, the Scouts join in gay pride marches, and have an LGBT-branded logo.

Go figure.

https://twitter.com/scouts/status/746739332011155457

http://members.scouts.org.uk/cms.php?pageid=3195





In the U.S. Boys Scouts also participate in Gay Pride Events.

My nephews in the Chicago area are marching with other members of their Troop as I am writing this...





"Sometimes the best things in life are a hot girl and a cold beer."



IdleBoast

  • Guest
Reply #2 on: June 25, 2016, 08:07:25 PM
Officially, but;

Quote
Although it is now possible for gay leaders to serve openly in the Boys Scouts of America, doing so is still just that: a possibility, not a guarantee. The Boy Scouts has lifted its ban on openly gay leaders and employees, but it has allowed religious chartered organizations, which operate more than  70 percent of the Boy Scouts Scouting units, "to use religious beliefs as criteria for selecting adult leaders, including matters of sexuality," according to their announcement.

The Boy Scouts' exemptions thereby maintain restrictions on capable and willing gay leaders.

The ladies are more progressive:

Quote
the Girl Scouts of Western Washington made headlines when they rejected a $100,000 gift, given under the condition that it would not be used for transgender girls. A month prior to the rejection, Girls Scouts USA Chief Girl Expert Andrea Bastani Archibald stated, "There is not one type of girl," and, "every girl's sense of self, path to it, and how she is supported is unique."

https://www.aclu.org/blog/speak-freely/dont-clap-just-yet-boy-scouts

Also: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/utah-gay-boy-scouts_us_5649f65ee4b045bf3defe7f5




Offline MissBarbara

  • Burnt at the stake
  • *******
    • Posts: 16,195
    • Woos/Boos: +3193/-41
    • Gender: Female
Reply #3 on: June 25, 2016, 09:12:22 PM
Officially, but;

Quote
Although it is now possible for gay leaders to serve openly in the Boys Scouts of America, doing so is still just that: a possibility, not a guarantee. The Boy Scouts has lifted its ban on openly gay leaders and employees, but it has allowed religious chartered organizations, which operate more than  70 percent of the Boy Scouts Scouting units, "to use religious beliefs as criteria for selecting adult leaders, including matters of sexuality," according to their announcement.

The Boy Scouts' exemptions thereby maintain restrictions on capable and willing gay leaders.

The ladies are more progressive:

Quote
the Girl Scouts of Western Washington made headlines when they rejected a $100,000 gift, given under the condition that it would not be used for transgender girls. A month prior to the rejection, Girls Scouts USA Chief Girl Expert Andrea Bastani Archibald stated, "There is not one type of girl," and, "every girl's sense of self, path to it, and how she is supported is unique."

https://www.aclu.org/blog/speak-freely/dont-clap-just-yet-boy-scouts

Also: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/utah-gay-boy-scouts_us_5649f65ee4b045bf3defe7f5




On the one hand, that's from the ACLU and in the context of LBGT advocacy, so it's hardly an objective source. And the HuffPost piece is about one group of Scouts in one specific place, certainly not something to generalize from.

On the other hand, it's an example of exceptions proving the rule (which is another way of saying "stereotypes"). I think this one comment after the article speaks volumes:

"I was involved with the scouts for 20 years as a youth and as a professional and never witnessed outright hatred or bigotry. Indeed, there were a few rednecks from smaller towns, but none that did not have the youth placed first. I have known 3 eagle scouts friends that "came out" later in life, and they were all better for having been part of the scouts. The boy led program instills leadership qualities, makes boys into better citizens, and give a kid freedom to explore areas of interest. I have no problem with the current policy changes, however, it seems too much policy simply creates a better system for the ADULTS in the program, not the BOYS."

Further, there's a difference -- in most social issues but in this one especially -- between not discriminating and actively advocating. The writer's point in the first article is chiefly about advocacy. Active discrimination against LGBT Scouts and Leaders is chiefly a thing of the past, with a few exceptions being seized about by advocates and posited as the rule.

As I mentioned, by two nephews are marching in a Gay Pride parade, dressed in full uniform and under the Boy Scout banner, and this is the 3rd or 4th year in a row they've done so. In addition, I attended the Brooklyn Pride parade last year, and the NYC Pride parade two years ago, and in both I saw Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts marching in uniform. And this has become a nationwide phenomenon.

So, I guess you have to pick between the nay-saying of advocates and what's actually happening.







"Sometimes the best things in life are a hot girl and a cold beer."



Offline Elizabeth

  • Life Is Short........Play Naked..!!!
  • Burnt at the stake
  • *******
    • Posts: 8,768
    • Woos/Boos: +392/-10
    • Gender: Female
Reply #4 on: June 25, 2016, 10:31:59 PM




"I was involved with the scouts for 20 years as a youth and as a professional and never witnessed outright hatred or bigotry. Indeed, there were a few rednecks from smaller towns, but none that did not have the youth placed first. I have known 3 eagle scouts friends that "came out" later in life, and they were all better for having been part of the scouts. The boy led program instills leadership qualities, makes boys into better citizens, and give a kid freedom to explore areas of interest. I have no problem with the current policy changes, however, it seems too much policy simply creates a better system for the ADULTS in the program, not the BOYS."




MissB.......

Good Quote from the article...But don't you still find it a little disturbing that right in the quote that 3 Eagle Scouts "had to come out later in life". That alone still shows or at least presents us with an anti-gay attitude in the Boy Scouts (no matter what they publicly say).

Love,
Liz





Offline MissBarbara

  • Burnt at the stake
  • *******
    • Posts: 16,195
    • Woos/Boos: +3193/-41
    • Gender: Female
Reply #5 on: June 26, 2016, 12:39:48 AM

"I was involved with the scouts for 20 years as a youth and as a professional and never witnessed outright hatred or bigotry. Indeed, there were a few rednecks from smaller towns, but none that did not have the youth placed first. I have known 3 eagle scouts friends that "came out" later in life, and they were all better for having been part of the scouts. The boy led program instills leadership qualities, makes boys into better citizens, and give a kid freedom to explore areas of interest. I have no problem with the current policy changes, however, it seems too much policy simply creates a better system for the ADULTS in the program, not the BOYS."



MissB.......

Good Quote from the article...But don't you still find it a little disturbing that right in the quote that 3 Eagle Scouts "had to come out later in life". That alone still shows or at least presents us with an anti-gay attitude in the Boy Scouts (no matter what they publicly say).

Love,
Liz



It doesn't imply a cause and effect between being gay and being unable to come out because you're a Scout.

And, even if it did, he's clearly referring to a time in the past. I'm sure there were hundreds of organizations -- including virtually virtually every sports organization -- where, during that time period, a young man would not feel comfortable being openly gay among his peers.

Times have changed dramatically.





"Sometimes the best things in life are a hot girl and a cold beer."



Offline RopeFiend

  • The Cleaner
  • Super Freak
  • Burnt at the stake
  • ******
    • Posts: 5,395
    • Woos/Boos: +672/-30
    • Gender: Male
Reply #6 on: June 26, 2016, 02:15:36 AM


I wasn't kicked out for being atheist, but I *was* discriminated against by the kids.

In retaliation another friend and I "played gay" on a camping trip.  We got talked to later.  He realized from the grins that they'd all been had, and very deftly so.  The adults pretty much had the "live and let live" attitude about atheism in the early '70s in Phoenix, but were decidedly anti-gay.

Funny aside: the friend that I "played gay" with had NO FREAKING CLUE that his brother was gay... and didn't know for nearly 15 years.  Wow, some people have really poor gaydar.  His brother accidentally outed himself when he was 24 or 25.

Remember the Golden Rule: you do me, and I\'ll do you (paraphrased)


IdleBoast

  • Guest
Reply #7 on: June 26, 2016, 11:27:07 AM
I guess, in such a big country, the picture is far from homogeneous.

There is an issue [to my eyes] about the wording of the respective organisation's policies:

BSA policy:

Quote
Youth may not be denied membership in the BSA on the basis of sexual orientation or preference alone.

That's the whole policy for young people.

That phrase is effectively hidden on the BSA website.  I had to use google to find the policy - a search for "gay", "LGBT" of the actual BSA site produces no results, and a search for "sexuality" produces only three hits - the first pre-dates the current policy, clarifying the above statement for discussion, the third is a marketing report that does not mention sexuality, but the second is a policy document issued to leaders that contains this:

Quote
Five Key Facts

1.   The National Executive Board ratified a resolution that removes the national restriction on avowedly homosexual adult leaders and employees. The resolution is effective immediately.

2.   Chartered organizations will continue to select their adult leaders. Religious chartered organizations, solely, may continue to use religious beliefs as criteria for selecting adult leaders, including matters of sexuality.


3.   Scouting’s members and parents may continue to select local units, chartered to organizations with similar beliefs, that best meet the needs of their families.

4.   The youth membership policy adopted in 2013 is not affected by this resolution and remains unchanged.

5.   The ideals and principles of “duty to God” and “a Scout is reverent” set forth in the Scout Oath and Scout Law remain central to Scouting. Scouting is not an appropriate environment to discuss sexual conduct. While there is no national or local council restriction on avowedly homosexual adults serving as leaders or employees, everyone agrees to follow national policies and comply with the BSA’s behavioral standards.

See: http://bsaseabase.org/filestore/financeimpact/doc/leadership_standards_development_toolkit.docx

Further down the same document:
Quote
Religious chartered organizations may continue to use religious beliefs as criteria for selecting adult leaders, including matters of sexuality.
Quote
The BSA will continue to legally defend—or indemnify—the rights of its religious chartered organizations to choose leaders whose beliefs are consistent with their own.
Quote
The adopted policy allows religious chartered organizations to use religious beliefs as criteria for selecting adult leaders. The BSA will defend and protect from loss religious chartered organizations that select their leaders based on good-faith religious beliefs.

So, the weasel-wording of the policy ("alone"), combined with the open permission to discriminate on grounds of religion (and 70% of BSA groups are church-sponsored) means that the effective policy of the BSA is;

Quote
We are not banning you from scouting because of your sexuality, we are banning you from scouting because you do not meet our religious standards, which you fail because of your sexuality.


On top of that, the policy document also states a number of times that sexuality may not be discussed within a scouting context, and that if young people raise the issue, it says;
Quote
Scouts will be directed to their religious leaders or parents to seek guidance on these matters.

So, if these young people open up to the people they thought they could trust with their personal growth, they get sent instead to the people most likely to give them damaging advice (note that religious leaders are given priority over parents!).

The ban on discussing sexuality also means that any scout or leader that comes out to their group or fellow leaders as gay has, despite the supposed policy allowing membership, automatically given grounds for dismissal from the organisation, no matter what the policy of their group's sponsoring organisation.

Now, as we have seen in other comments in this topic (and just like any similar organisation around the world) there are groups who choose to ignore or even flaunt such policies, but 70% of the BSA's groups are sponsored by religious organisations (most significantly the Mormons) that openly and actively work against the LGBT community.

Remembering that this is all my personal opinion, it seems that the BSA policy is purely a box-ticking exercise designed to quiet media furore and mollify Eagle Scout Award holders, whilst quietly allowing the sexual discrimination to continue, disguised as religious inclusion.



In sharp contrast, this is the UK Scout association's policy;

Quote
The Scout Association is committed to extending Scouting, its Purpose and Method to young people in all parts of society.

No young person should receive less favourable treatment on the basis of, nor suffer disadvantage by reason of:

    Class or socio-economic status;
    ethnic origin, nationality (or statelessness) or race;
    gender (including gender reassignment);
    marital or civil partnership status;
    sexual orientation;
    disability (including mental or physical ability);
    political belief;
    pregnancy;
    religion or belief (including the absence of belief).

All Members of the Movement should seek to practise that equality, especially in promoting access to Scouting for young people in all parts of society. The Scout Association opposes all forms of racism.


No person volunteering their services should receive less favourable treatment on the basis of, nor suffer disadvantage by reason of:

    age;
    class or socio-economic status;
    ethnic origin, nationality (or statelessness) or race;
    gender (including gender reassignment);
    marital or civil partnership status;
    sexual orientation;
    disability (including mental or physical ability);
    political belief;
    pregnancy;
    religion or belief (including the absence of belief).

In addition, all leaders get training on how to sensitively deal with members bringing up the issue of sexuality, how to support them, and a range of specialist organisations who can help.




Offline RopeFiend

  • The Cleaner
  • Super Freak
  • Burnt at the stake
  • ******
    • Posts: 5,395
    • Woos/Boos: +672/-30
    • Gender: Male
Reply #8 on: June 27, 2016, 03:54:06 AM

IdleBoast, roughly half of the Scout troops here in the USA aren't religious-based.  'Course that didn't stop the Katholische Jugend from trying to force me into their beliefs.  Theoretically that current standing doesn't give the troops based out of public schools ANY reason to reject gay or atheist boys.

They were a little annoyed that I purposely left the 'god' word out of their Scout Oath:

On my honor, I will do my best, to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; to help other people at all times; to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

I fought for the right to not pledge something that I didn't believe in, and won.

Remember the Golden Rule: you do me, and I\'ll do you (paraphrased)


IdleBoast

  • Guest
Reply #9 on: June 27, 2016, 06:28:43 PM

IdleBoast, roughly half of the Scout troops here in the USA aren't religious-based.  'Course that didn't stop the Katholische Jugend from trying to force me into their beliefs.  Theoretically that current standing doesn't give the troops based out of public schools ANY reason to reject gay or atheist boys.

They were a little annoyed that I purposely left the 'god' word out of their Scout Oath:

On my honor, I will do my best, to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; to help other people at all times; to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

I fought for the right to not pledge something that I didn't believe in, and won.

There's another difference - Scouting over here has a choice of Promises, depending on your religious leanings, including a completely non-religious version.




Offline MissBarbara

  • Burnt at the stake
  • *******
    • Posts: 16,195
    • Woos/Boos: +3193/-41
    • Gender: Female
Reply #10 on: June 27, 2016, 06:57:08 PM

I guess, in such a big country, the picture is far from homogeneous.

There is an issue [to my eyes] about the wording of the respective organisation's policies:

.   .   .   .   .


First and foremost, I am in awe of your amazing research job. Huge props for that!

Second, it's unarguably clear that the Scouts in the U.K. are far more progressive, at least on an official basis, than those in the U.S.

Third, you're right: The U.S. is a humongous -- and humongously diverse -- country, with an impossibly wide multiplicity of backgrounds, beliefs, etc.

Fourth (and finally), the Scouts in the U.S. are making progress. No, nowhere near as much as those in the U.K., but like virtually every rights effort in the U.S., things proceed ploddingly slow. But progress is -- undeniably -- being made.

One final idiosyncrasy about the U.S.: There's often a wide gap between theory and practice, between official rules and day-to-day practice. This, I think, speaks boldly to this topic, and others as well. I'd strongly suspect that if you ignore official national Scout policy and look at individual troops, you'd more often than not find that the "gay issue" is not, in fact, an issue at all. 






"Sometimes the best things in life are a hot girl and a cold beer."



IdleBoast

  • Guest
Reply #11 on: June 27, 2016, 07:34:52 PM
Quote
First and foremost, I am in awe of your amazing research job. Huge props for that!

Meh, I knew a big chunk of it anyway, just needed to find confirming links; In the real world, I've been in Scouting for many years, and LGBT equality has been a bit of an interest for quite some time (for reasons I may go into elsewhere).  When a gay colleague got bullied out of his scout leader role with a different district, the two sort of came together.






Offline RopeFiend

  • The Cleaner
  • Super Freak
  • Burnt at the stake
  • ******
    • Posts: 5,395
    • Woos/Boos: +672/-30
    • Gender: Male
Reply #12 on: June 28, 2016, 03:30:48 AM

BTW, that 'official' BSA resolution that was actively anti-gay came down some time in the '90s.  I head about it roughly 15 years ago.  I cut all ties with the Scouts, and swore to never support a morally-corrupt organization like that again.  I also added my signature to a couple of petitions to get the religious-based troops disallowed from free use of state and federal facilities due to their discrimination.  It didn't work, but we tried.

Remember the Golden Rule: you do me, and I\'ll do you (paraphrased)


Offline Elizabeth

  • Life Is Short........Play Naked..!!!
  • Burnt at the stake
  • *******
    • Posts: 8,768
    • Woos/Boos: +392/-10
    • Gender: Female
Reply #13 on: June 28, 2016, 01:27:54 PM
What About "The Explorers"..??
Aren't they the "Coed" off shoot of the Scouts.
Are they still around..??

Love,
Liz



IdleBoast

  • Guest
Reply #14 on: June 28, 2016, 01:34:37 PM
In the UK, Scouting is co-ed top-to-bottom. Most groups are heavily male-biased (because of Guiding), but I know of some groups that are mostly female.

"Beavers" start at age 6, then Cubs at 8, Scouts at 10.5 (don't know why), Explorers at 13/14, then "Network" at 18.

Beavers to Scouts are group-based, Explorers are usually district-based, and Network have no base at all, it's more a social group than anything, with no leaders.




Offline Elizabeth

  • Life Is Short........Play Naked..!!!
  • Burnt at the stake
  • *******
    • Posts: 8,768
    • Woos/Boos: +392/-10
    • Gender: Female
Reply #15 on: June 28, 2016, 01:37:32 PM
LOL....."Beavers"...??
OMG IB...!!!!
I think you can expect some strange answers from that post.
Good Luck...!!!!
 :emot_laughing:

Love,
Liz



IdleBoast

  • Guest
Reply #16 on: June 28, 2016, 01:55:56 PM
LOL - they get call "little blue ninjas", because they're utterly fearless, and despite their bright blue uniforms, as soon as you let them loose in a field, they vanish!




Offline MintJulie

  • ~. Version Number 9.15.0 ~
  • Super Freak
  • Burnt at the stake
  • ******
    • Posts: 10,958
    • Woos/Boos: +1814/-23
    • Gender: Female
  • Madame Sheriff
Reply #17 on: June 28, 2016, 07:28:23 PM
Everyone in America grew up with "Leave it to Beaver" jokes.... "Ward, don't you think you were a little hard on the Beaver last night?"

hahaha, I never heard that.....well, yeah, I remember the quote from the show but, omg......I can't wait to tell my dad this.

 :emot_laughing:,
Jules


.
          You might not know this, but I have a thing for Tom Brady (and Bill Clinton)
Version 9.15
POY 2016


Offline Freemont

  • Pervert
  • **
    • Posts: 99
    • Woos/Boos: +12/-0
    • Gender: Male
Reply #18 on: July 01, 2016, 06:44:32 PM
Their stand on gay rights aside I always wanted to be a scout. It wasn't an option where I grew up but it looks like so much fun.

As the old guard die off and are replaced by newer people I hope we will see and end to this kind of thinking. At least I hope so :)