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Offline Elizabeth

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Reply #40 on: March 23, 2016, 02:51:17 AM
To Bad We Can't Fast Forward About Ten Years From Now.....................And See What's Really Happening (ed). But then again the finger pointing would be horrendous along with the see I told you so.

Love,
Liz
 



Offline joan1984

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Reply #41 on: March 23, 2016, 03:35:31 AM
What we can do, Liz, is look back 10 years, see what AlGore and other climate charlatans were telling us was happening, what was coming, and see reality that the claims were bogus then, and remain untrue, even with the "concensus" scam and structure we are being cowed into accepting. Lies, an attempt to fleece you and me, to no good end.

When alternate energy can stand alone, and DO something, like power an air liner, not require fossil fuel backup redundant systems, deliver reasonable energy at reasonable, competitive prices, without subsidies and regulations on the legitimate energy sources that are proven, not only as energy but as the source for employment that is being destroyed, in search of this pie in the sky, to fit what is essentially a scam, pushed by people who draw their salary from us, and their wealth from benefactors profiting from us.

We can look back, and be realistic about how credible politicians are, really.


To Bad We Can't Fast Forward About Ten Years From Now.....................And See What's Really Happening (ed). But then again the finger pointing would be horrendous along with the see I told you so.

Love,
Liz
 

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but they bring a smile to your face as they fall down stairs.


Offline Katiebee

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Reply #42 on: March 23, 2016, 05:49:08 PM
You have just described the oil companies as well.

There are three kinds of people in the world. Those who can count, and those who can't.


Offline RopeFiend

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Reply #43 on: March 24, 2016, 02:14:57 AM
To Bad We Can't Fast Forward About Ten Years From Now.....................And See What's Really Happening (ed). But then again the finger pointing would be horrendous along with the see I told you so.

Love,
Liz
 

FINALLY, someone GETS it!  :D  The liberals are worried about WEATHER and idiotic computer models that are obviously wrong.  We won't truly know whether the CLIMATE is changing for a long time, maybe another 20 to 30 years minimum.  Until we *know* (and recently the 'weather' has been flat level for nearly 2 decades) there's no point in changing your lifestyle, and ZERO point in throwing hundreds of millions at the freaking UN IPCC.

A pointless 'carbon tax' is just a freaking TAX with no purpose: yet another way to fund social programs by taxing industry.  The effects of carbon and methane in the atmosphere are utterly swamped by humidity & moisture, so the ONLY place you'll ever be able to detect changes due to carbon/methane is at the poles.  The North pole is a little warmer than normal due to the ozone hole (which was around LONG before CFCs), yet the South pole has been dead flat & stable for something like 30 years with ZERO change in temperature.  Hell, the amount of glacial ice is increasing in the South.

The kiddies in The Other Camp are calling me a 'denier'.  It's a way to make me seem like I'm off my crock.  I'll respond by calling them 'liars'.  They're screaming about something that's absolutely NOT backed up by data, so they're lying to themselves and the rest of us.  Throw away those horribly incomplete computer models, and go outside and look at reality for a while. 

The most accurate model that seems to mimic the climate 'forcing' is so full of holes that it has a magical 'force X' coming from the sun a full cycle (11+ years) after the sunspots cycle.  There's not enough data yet to determine what 'force X' is, but if it's a real effect then we're headed for a prolonged cold snap in the near future.  THAT will really cheese off the 'liars'.

We're not in an ice age (yet!), and we're sure as hell not experiencing 'global warming'.  This recent El Niño doesn't count; it's a natural event, too.  They don't really know WHY the ENSO cycle happens, not really.  Oh, there's theories about the Pacific Decadal Oscillation, but there's not enough hard data yet for much more than rough guesses.

Let's get out of the realm of guessing before we start throwing billions of dollars around, otherwise we're just wasting money.  If you want to fund your social programs, be honest about it.  Then we'll chat about the Public Debt.

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Reply #44 on: March 24, 2016, 04:14:43 AM
Public debt: there's an issue we can agree on! Does anybody seriously think government is ever going to stop gorging itself on debt, much less that we will ever run trillions of dollars of surplus to ever make a dent in paying it off? The only plan the government has is to keep inflating our money in the ridiculous expectation that when and if we ever do pay it off, it will be with dollars that are worth one-zillionth of what they used to be.

Nineteen trillion bucks, $19,000,000,000,000 as of January 2016, 104% of the previous 12 months GDP, and growing exponentially. $450,000,000,000 in interest payments each year, just think of how many more countries we could blast to smithereens each year if we didn't have to pay that interest! Plus how much more tax relief and corporate welfare we could give to the rich so they could aspire to moving up from the billionaire class to the trillionaire class! Wouldn't that make Janet Yellen cum in her knickers!




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Reply #45 on: March 24, 2016, 10:26:38 PM
The liberals ...

See, now Science isn't about politics.  Left-wing, right-wing, the facts don't change.

As soon as somebody brings politics into a discussion about climate, their position is utterly negated, because it shows that they are posting a politically or financially motivated opinion, not actual facts interpreted from an objective world-view.

It's no coincidence that climate-change deniers using "leftie" or "liberal" in their arguments tend also to deny other scientific facts, such as evolution or the efficacy of vaccines, with a less-pronounced, but still obvious, predilection for fetishising gun ownership.





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Reply #46 on: March 25, 2016, 12:33:20 AM
LOL, my previous comment still standing, I just discovered that "climate change" as a term was invented by Republicans , because it was less scary than "global warming" and thus easier to persuade the uneducated not to worry about it!

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2013/04/28/fox_news_global_warming_versus_climate_change.html

Make sure you watch the videos, and the links are quite interesting.





IdleBoast

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Reply #47 on: April 17, 2016, 11:21:27 PM
The latest data from Japan; "March" from 1890 to 2016:



No human alive has experienced a March as hot as the one we just had.

Or February.

Or January.

Or December.

Or...





IdleBoast

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Reply #48 on: April 18, 2016, 12:26:49 AM
Also:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2016/04/16/doubting-climate-change-not-enough/3aBHd9Weo9AxSmzI99LSZJ/story.html

Quote
Last month, Donald Trump sat down with the editorial board of The Washington Post for over an hour. The Post editors asked him about his foreign policy advisers, about his plans to revive US cities, about law enforcement, race, libel laws, thuggery at his rallies, and more — until, hard against the end of the session, there was time for one last question. What about global warming, asked editorial page editor Fred Hiatt: “Is there human-caused climate change?”

No, Trump replied. Not really: “I think there’s a change in weather. I am not a great believer in man-made climate change. I’m not a great believer.” That’s not really an argument, of course — it’s more an evocation of that old Monkees tune. But stripped to essentials, the GOP presidential front-runner’s stance is essentially the same as that of his chief rival, Texas Senator Ted Cruz, who says more bluntly that “climate change is the perfect pseudoscientific theory for a big government politician who wants more power.”

Climate change is a hoax, Cruz argues, because his favorite data set shows that there has been “no significant warming over the last 18 years.” No warming means no climate change, which means there’s nothing to see here, folks — and, to complete the syllogism, any suggestion that we face a human-caused crisis is just a Trojan horse for a far-left program of economic change.

There’s lots wrong with Cruz’s claim, starting with the repeated and always ignored debunking of his premise. Cruz’s 18-year timeline was carefully chosen. It starts in 1997/98, omitting the first 18 years of that particular series of observations. 1997/98 was an abnormally warm El Nino year, which makes this a classic example of cherry picking: It’s easy to deny a warming trend if you pick the warmest year and not the year-over-year average. Similarly, Cruz looks at satellite measurements of the temperature only of the atmosphere — and ignores those that measure temperatures on the surface of the earth, where people actually live.

But the problem with such fact-by-fact correctives is the implicit acceptance of the terms of dispute that Cruz (and more vaguely, Trump) wants to define. As you debate each data point, the larger picture never comes into view. And that directly encourages a false sense that all of climate science is up for grabs.

That is: Climate science (like any ambitious attempt to interrogate nature) faces plenty of uncertainty at the limits of knowledge. There are hard-fought debates about each new observation or analysis. But such battles take place against a background of settled ideas and rock-solid observations that taken together inform every attempt to make sense of climate and human action.

This body of uncontested knowledge is exactly what Cruz and other climate change deniers ignore. In so doing, they not only distort whatever particular bit of data they’re peddling, they also undermine the public understanding of how science in general actually works. That makes it ever more difficult to inform our politics with what we do know.

Here are some key facts about humankind’s impact on the earth’s climate. Taken together they form a bedrock of understanding for which any attempt to dispute the global warming picture must account.

The founding insight can be traced back to a precise place and time: Stockholm, Dec. 11, 1895, when Svante Arrhenius stood before the Swedish Academy of Science to present his paper “On the Influence of Carbonic Acid upon the Temperature of the Ground.” (Carbonic acid is now better known as carbon dioxide.) Arrhenius began by recalling how his predecessors had shown that the gas is transparent to visible light — the sun shines perfectly happily through all the CO2 between it and the earth’s surface — but absorbs energy at longer wavelengths of light — infrared radiation, what we feel as heat.

Arrhenius then took this basic physical insight and used it to build a picture of a planetwide process. He showed that “if the quantity of carbonic acid [in the atmosphere] increases in geometric progression, the augmentation of the temperature [at the earth’s surface] will increase nearly in arithmetic progression” — which is to say, more carbon up there leads directly to more heat down here. He went on to discuss a possible link between CO2 levels and the ebb and flow of ice ages — and he even noted the possibility that burning coal or other fossil fuels might affect the carbon content of the atmosphere.

There it was: One hundred and twenty years ago physicists and chemists already knew that atmospheric CO2 molds global climate. There was and is no disagreement on this. Carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas. It allows visible light to penetrate the atmosphere, and it acts as a blanket, keeping heat from radiating back out into space. This knowledge does not depend on any indirect measurements, assumptions, or elaborate numerical analysis. Rather, it emerges directly from the extremely well established basic understanding of the behavior of atoms and molecules.

The second piece of the puzzle is equally solid. We know how much carbon is in the atmosphere; we know that its concentration is going up; we know by how much. This isn’t a case of argument-by-proxy, an attempt to reconstruct a record through pollen deposits or tree ring data or what have you (though such methods are powerful tools to extract information from the past). There is no question about these facts — because, more than 50 years ago, a guy climbed a tall mountain to find out.

In the mid 1950s, Charles Keeling was a postdoc in geochemistry at Caltech. While there, he built the first instrument that could accurately measure CO2 concentrations in atmospheric samples. He tried his new device out on trips around California, but it was only when he moved to the Scripps Institution of Oceanography that was able to begin an experiment that has outlived him. Beginning in 1956, Keeling and his successors have measured atmospheric CO2 at an observatory high on the flanks of Mauna Loa, one of the two giant volcanoes that dominate the Big Island of Hawaii. There is nothing there to confound the work — no smokestacks, cars, anything. The graph that records what they’ve found over six decades is now called the Keeling Curve — and it is unequivocal.

One of the first things Keeling saw was a jigsaw trace tracking the change of the seasons. As plants grow in the land-rich Northern hemisphere in spring and summer, they grab CO2 out of the air. In winter, as leaves die and fall, some of that carbon gets released back into the atmosphere. As one of the obituaries that followed his death in 2005 put it, Keeling “had discovered that the earth itself was breathing.”

But such small fluctuations can’t hide the overall trajectory. When Keeling first began his measurements, carbon dioxide accounted for 310 parts per million of the atmosphere. Since then, each year has seen an increase, drawing a curve that is pretty close to a line pointing ever upward. As of April 13, 2016, the Mauna Loa observatory counted 408.70 parts per million of CO2.

That’s just the way it is: a number that corresponds to a real quantity out there in nature. Like the figure for acceleration due to gravity at the earth’s surface (about 9.8 meters/ second squared) or the chemical composition of water (two atoms of hydrogen bound to one of oxygen), it’s not subject to debate. It’s not an article of Trump’s (or anyone’s) belief. We live on a planet that until recently sported 310 parts per million of carbon dioxide as a thermal blanket — and now has more than 400. Any debate about global climate begins from that unvarnished, unchallengeable reality.

The third beyond-dispute fact about climate change concerns who’s responsible for that rise in atmospheric CO2.

It’s us.

Human society excretes a lot of carbon. The numbers are somewhat less precise than the Mauna Loa measurements — but they’re still based on direct observation. A number of different agencies and research centers collect the various data sets on industrial activity, power generation, deforestation, and the like. In 2014, all that work put together tallied 35.9 billion tons of CO2 produced by burning of coal, oil, and gas, plus or minus a small variance. Land use changes added another 3.3 billion tons of the gas per year over the last decade, though here the uncertainty is larger — plus or minus 1.8 billion tons. (There are other greenhouse gases for which good estimates of human production exist — notably methane — but CO2 remains the single largest culprit in the climate change story.)

From Arrhenius’s first musings about the impact of human action on climate, the key question was whether any possible carbon sinks — especially the oceans — could absorb both natural sources of CO2 (volcanoes, forest fires, and the like) and that released by everything people burn. Now we know — thanks to Keeling’s observations — that the answer is no. The oceans do absorb some of the annual production of CO2 from both natural events and what we produce, but the way we live now creates an excess of carbon that overflows all such natural reservoirs.

These three facts: Atmospheric carbon dioxide regulates temperature at the earth’s surface, its levels have been and are continuing to rise, and human beings are behind that increase — lead directly to a simple conclusion. All else being equal, human action is driving a global process that will create and likely already is leading to a warmer world.

Everything else isn’t equal, of course. The global climate system is intricate, difficult to untangle, tricky to measure, and home to plenty of uncertainties. But here’s the nub: Any claim that the world isn’t getting hotter now and won’t warm in the future can’t rely on just one scrap of information or another. It has to make a bigger argument — some coherent account of why ever increasing amounts of carbon produced directly by human activity won’t end up where at all our basic understanding of how nature works suggests it should.

So, when Ted Cruz argues that all of climate science is a hoax because one piece of information — squinted at just right — suggests a gap in the warming record, he’s not thinking like a scientist. Instead, he’s making a lawyer’s case, pounding the table for the defense. That’s fine work as rhetoric; we’re trained through cultural understanding and uncounted hours of TV courtroom drama to see cases turn on each individual piece of evidence. “If the carbon don’t fit, you must acquit” and all that.

But that’s not how science works, not when studying climate or anything else. A century ago, Albert Einstein produced his General Theory of Relativity, a radical conception of gravity that displaced Isaac Newton’s version. Yet Einstein’s theory didn’t erase all the successes the older idea had in explaining the motions of everything from the moons of Jupiter to tides here on Earth’s tides. That’s why one of the first calculations Einstein performed to test his new idea was to see if it could reproduce Newtonian results at the appropriate scales. Even the greatest discoveries don’t invalidate older knowledge. Rather they frame such prior ideas within their newly emerging picture.

Much of contemporary science has accumulated into a deep understanding of the natural world that is inconvenient for the leading Republican candidates for president. Willed ignorance is a disaster for climate policy in particular. It is worse as an approach to science in the public sphere. For centuries, human curiosity led us to the point where we know so much; it would be good — more, it may well be a matter of survival — to put all that knowledge to use.


Thomas Levenson is a professor of science writing at MIT and an Ideas columnist. His latest book is “The Hunt for Vulcan.”





Offline RopeFiend

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Reply #49 on: April 18, 2016, 12:45:51 AM
That's a nice graph (two posts back), but it's cooked; if it showed the few hundred years PREVIOUS, it wouldn't look nearly so bad.  We're simply returning to the 'average' for the last 10,000 years or so.  Hell, the temps now are WAY lower than during the height of the Roman Empire.  Italy survived.

The data doesn't really look like that graph... they've ripped the points down to emphasize their goal.  

Plus, anything before about 1980 or so is highly suspect data when you're talking only a half-degee reading difference.  It's damned hard to read a mercury thermometer to that level of accuracy.  Look at the scale on your graph.

In addition, anything before 1980 isn't *global*, it's merely an accumulation of (primarily) land-based measuring points, about 500 of which are near fucking CITIES.  Please tell me that a major city doesn't effect the local temperature.  The land data totally ignores the ocean temperatures, which were NEVER measured in any consistent way until the global sat temperatures were started.  The oceans have a freaking enormous effect on weather, as this latest El Niño clearly shows.  However, it's trending down and they're predicting a La Niña to counteract it.

Please, don't bother quoting Trump *or* Cruz on climate science.  I"m not sure either one can SPELL the words.  :o  Both are more than 4 letters.


edit: and PLEASE, don't hotlink pictures in your posts!!!  Copy and paste the image URL into the IMGUR.COM 'Enter image URLs' box.  It's safe to hotlink from Imgur, not so much anything that's not a dedicated image host.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2016, 12:48:39 AM by RopeFiend »

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Reply #50 on: April 18, 2016, 06:29:51 PM
I'll leave your tired and inaccurate denials, since they address nothing that was actually mentioned.

Please, don't bother quoting Trump *or* Cruz on climate science.  I"m not sure either one can SPELL the words.  :o  Both are more than 4 letters.

I wasn't quoting Trump, I was quoting an article that was criticising Trump and the other deniers.




Offline Elizabeth

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Reply #51 on: April 18, 2016, 07:33:33 PM
You guys keep quoting time periods that are irrelevant to me.
I know the 100's of years and 1000's of years and even further back make for some great graphs, (But so what), What I'm seeing right now is what affects me and will continue to affect me. The temperature's are rising (not some huge amount) but they are rising enough to cause change in agriculture, They are changing the patterns of "heat cycles" in animals, The changes will and do affect all of us "right now". And I'm pretty sure that to some extent the changes are causing a change in snowfall across the country. So the real question isn't where have we been but where are we going and how much more of a change can we and or the planet take.

Love,
Liz
 



Offline Lois

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Reply #52 on: April 18, 2016, 09:57:46 PM
The Republican position on global warming, as represented by its presidential candidates is one more example of the the party's embrace of ignorance and deceit as a political strategy. And one of the primary factors which is making the collapse of the Republican party inevitable. Science practiced as "the answer is whatever I want it to be" is not an option for any nation which wants to maintain even base level credibility in the 21st Century, to say nothing about leading.

In a world where North Korea is attempting its first ICBM, can we really afford to tolerate one of our two major political parties spearheaded by people whose positions would cause them to flunk out of high school science? Any candidate who is willing to disregard science for minor political gains with the ignorant class invalidates their legitimacy, and should be solidly repudiated.


Doubting climate change is not enough

Last month, Donald Trump sat down with the editorial board of The Washington Post for over an hour. The Post editors asked him about his foreign policy advisers, about his plans to revive US cities, about law enforcement, race, libel laws, thuggery at his rallies, and more — until, hard against the end of the session, there was time for one last question. What about global warming, asked editorial page editor Fred Hiatt: “Is there human-caused climate change?”

No, Trump replied. Not really: “I think there’s a change in weather. I am not a great believer in man-made climate change. I’m not a great believer.” That’s not really an argument, of course — it’s more an evocation of that old Monkees tune. But stripped to essentials, the GOP presidential front-runner’s stance is essentially the same as that of his chief rival, Texas Senator Ted Cruz, who says more bluntly that “climate change is the perfect pseudoscientific theory for a big government politician who wants more power.”

Climate change is a hoax, Cruz argues, because his favorite data set shows that there has been “no significant warming over the last 18 years.” No warming means no climate change, which means there’s nothing to see here, folks — and, to complete the syllogism, any suggestion that we face a human-caused crisis is just a Trojan horse for a far-left program of economic change.

There’s lots wrong with Cruz’s claim, starting with the repeated and always ignored debunking of his premise. Cruz’s 18-year timeline was carefully chosen. It starts in 1997/98, omitting the first 18 years of that particular series of observations. 1997/98 was an abnormally warm El Nino year, which makes this a classic example of cherry picking: It’s easy to deny a warming trend if you pick the warmest year and not the year-over-year average. Similarly, Cruz looks at satellite measurements of the temperature only of the atmosphere — and ignores those that measure temperatures on the surface of the earth, where people actually live.

But the problem with such fact-by-fact correctives is the implicit acceptance of the terms of dispute that Cruz (and more vaguely, Trump) wants to define. As you debate each data point, the larger picture never comes into view. And that directly encourages a false sense that all of climate science is up for grabs.

That is: Climate science (like any ambitious attempt to interrogate nature) faces plenty of uncertainty at the limits of knowledge. There are hard-fought debates about each new observation or analysis. But such battles take place against a background of settled ideas and rock-solid observations that taken together inform every attempt to make sense of climate and human action.

This body of uncontested knowledge is exactly what Cruz and other climate change deniers ignore. In so doing, they not only distort whatever particular bit of data they’re peddling, they also undermine the public understanding of how science in general actually works. That makes it ever more difficult to inform our politics with what we do know.

Here are some key facts about humankind’s impact on the earth’s climate. Taken together they form a bedrock of understanding for which any attempt to dispute the global warming picture must account.

The founding insight can be traced back to a precise place and time: Stockholm, Dec. 11, 1895, when Svante Arrhenius stood before the Swedish Academy of Science to present his paper “On the Influence of Carbonic Acid upon the Temperature of the Ground.” (Carbonic acid is now better known as carbon dioxide.) Arrhenius began by recalling how his predecessors had shown that the gas is transparent to visible light — the sun shines perfectly happily through all the CO2 between it and the earth’s surface — but absorbs energy at longer wavelengths of light — infrared radiation, what we feel as heat.

Arrhenius then took this basic physical insight and used it to build a picture of a planetwide process. He showed that “if the quantity of carbonic acid [in the atmosphere] increases in geometric progression, the augmentation of the temperature [at the earth’s surface] will increase nearly in arithmetic progression” — which is to say, more carbon up there leads directly to more heat down here. He went on to discuss a possible link between CO2 levels and the ebb and flow of ice ages — and he even noted the possibility that burning coal or other fossil fuels might affect the carbon content of the atmosphere.

There it was: One hundred and twenty years ago physicists and chemists already knew that atmospheric CO2 molds global climate. There was and is no disagreement on this. Carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas. It allows visible light to penetrate the atmosphere, and it acts as a blanket, keeping heat from radiating back out into space. This knowledge does not depend on any indirect measurements, assumptions, or elaborate numerical analysis. Rather, it emerges directly from the extremely well established basic understanding of the behavior of atoms and molecules.

The second piece of the puzzle is equally solid. We know how much carbon is in the atmosphere; we know that its concentration is going up; we know by how much. This isn’t a case of argument-by-proxy, an attempt to reconstruct a record through pollen deposits or tree ring data or what have you (though such methods are powerful tools to extract information from the past). There is no question about these facts — because, more than 50 years ago, a guy climbed a tall mountain to find out.

In the mid 1950s, Charles Keeling was a postdoc in geochemistry at Caltech. While there, he built the first instrument that could accurately measure CO2 concentrations in atmospheric samples. He tried his new device out on trips around California, but it was only when he moved to the Scripps Institution of Oceanography that was able to begin an experiment that has outlived him. Beginning in 1956, Keeling and his successors have measured atmospheric CO2 at an observatory high on the flanks of Mauna Loa, one of the two giant volcanoes that dominate the Big Island of Hawaii. There is nothing there to confound the work — no smokestacks, cars, anything. The graph that records what they’ve found over six decades is now called the Keeling Curve — and it is unequivocal.

One of the first things Keeling saw was a jigsaw trace tracking the change of the seasons. As plants grow in the land-rich Northern hemisphere in spring and summer, they grab CO2 out of the air. In winter, as leaves die and fall, some of that carbon gets released back into the atmosphere. As one of the obituaries that followed his death in 2005 put it, Keeling “had discovered that the earth itself was breathing.”

But such small fluctuations can’t hide the overall trajectory. When Keeling first began his measurements, carbon dioxide accounted for 310 parts per million of the atmosphere. Since then, each year has seen an increase, drawing a curve that is pretty close to a line pointing ever upward. As of April 13, 2016, the Mauna Loa observatory counted 408.70 parts per million of CO2.

That’s just the way it is: a number that corresponds to a real quantity out there in nature. Like the figure for acceleration due to gravity at the earth’s surface (about 9.8 meters/ second squared) or the chemical composition of water (two atoms of hydrogen bound to one of oxygen), it’s not subject to debate. It’s not an article of Trump’s (or anyone’s) belief. We live on a planet that until recently sported 310 parts per million of carbon dioxide as a thermal blanket — and now has more than 400. Any debate about global climate begins from that unvarnished, unchallengeable reality.

The third beyond-dispute fact about climate change concerns who’s responsible for that rise in atmospheric CO2.

It’s us.

Human society excretes a lot of carbon. The numbers are somewhat less precise than the Mauna Loa measurements — but they’re still based on direct observation. A number of different agencies and research centers collect the various data sets on industrial activity, power generation, deforestation, and the like. In 2014, all that work put together tallied 35.9 billion tons of CO2 produced by burning of coal, oil, and gas, plus or minus a small variance. Land use changes added another 3.3 billion tons of the gas per year over the last decade, though here the uncertainty is larger — plus or minus 1.8 billion tons. (There are other greenhouse gases for which good estimates of human production exist — notably methane — but CO2 remains the single largest culprit in the climate change story.)

From Arrhenius’s first musings about the impact of human action on climate, the key question was whether any possible carbon sinks — especially the oceans — could absorb both natural sources of CO2 (volcanoes, forest fires, and the like) and that released by everything people burn. Now we know — thanks to Keeling’s observations — that the answer is no. The oceans do absorb some of the annual production of CO2 from both natural events and what we produce, but the way we live now creates an excess of carbon that overflows all such natural reservoirs.

These three facts: Atmospheric carbon dioxide regulates temperature at the earth’s surface, its levels have been and are continuing to rise, and human beings are behind that increase — lead directly to a simple conclusion. All else being equal, human action is driving a global process that will create and likely already is leading to a warmer world.

Everything else isn’t equal, of course. The global climate system is intricate, difficult to untangle, tricky to measure, and home to plenty of uncertainties. But here’s the nub: Any claim that the world isn’t getting hotter now and won’t warm in the future can’t rely on just one scrap of information or another. It has to make a bigger argument — some coherent account of why ever increasing amounts of carbon produced directly by human activity won’t end up where at all our basic understanding of how nature works suggests it should.

So, when Ted Cruz argues that all of climate science is a hoax because one piece of information — squinted at just right — suggests a gap in the warming record, he’s not thinking like a scientist. Instead, he’s making a lawyer’s case, pounding the table for the defense. That’s fine work as rhetoric; we’re trained through cultural understanding and uncounted hours of TV courtroom drama to see cases turn on each individual piece of evidence. “If the carbon don’t fit, you must acquit” and all that.

But that’s not how science works, not when studying climate or anything else. A century ago, Albert Einstein produced his General Theory of Relativity, a radical conception of gravity that displaced Isaac Newton’s version. Yet Einstein’s theory didn’t erase all the successes the older idea had in explaining the motions of everything from the moons of Jupiter to tides here on Earth’s tides. That’s why one of the first calculations Einstein performed to test his new idea was to see if it could reproduce Newtonian results at the appropriate scales. Even the greatest discoveries don’t invalidate older knowledge. Rather they frame such prior ideas within their newly emerging picture.

Much of contemporary science has accumulated into a deep understanding of the natural world that is inconvenient for the leading Republican candidates for president. Willed ignorance is a disaster for climate policy in particular. It is worse as an approach to science in the public sphere. For centuries, human curiosity led us to the point where we know so much; it would be good — more, it may well be a matter of survival — to put all that knowledge to use.

Thomas Levenson is a professor of science writing at MIT and an Ideas columnist. His latest book is “The Hunt for Vulcan.”

http://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2016/04/16/doubting-climate-change-not-enough/3aBHd9Weo9AxSmzI99LSZJ/story.html



Offline RopeFiend

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Reply #53 on: April 19, 2016, 01:35:33 AM
Lois, PRETTY PLEASE can we leave the worthless politicians OUT of the subject?

There's not a single candidate running this season that has a FUCKING CLUE about either weather OR climate.  All they're doing is quoting the party line... on both sides.

You copy-pasta some rant that's utterly beside the point.  Unfortunately stupid politicians aren't an endangered species, so a little global temperature change won't effect 'em much.

Remember the Golden Rule: you do me, and I\'ll do you (paraphrased)


Offline Lois

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Reply #54 on: April 19, 2016, 02:12:47 AM
It's actually about cherry picking statistics.



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Reply #55 on: April 19, 2016, 11:50:00 PM
Rope, if you're so convinced global warming is false, Bill Nye has $20,000 with your name on it...




Offline RopeFiend

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Reply #56 on: April 20, 2016, 02:45:27 AM
Speaking of "cherry picking": THIS.

The latest data from Japan; "March" from 1890 to 2016:

<pix with only YEAR averages omitted... rolls eyes>

No human alive has experienced a March as hot as the one we just had.

Or February.

Or January.

Or December.

Or...


Umm, you know, it's easy to blow holes in that set of statements.  It's utterly false, and I can prove it quite simply: I read the weather EVERY DAY.  When we have record rainfalls, they report it.  When they have record highs, lows, lowest high, highest low, they report it.  It's been a hilariously long time since I remember a RECORD REPORT with a high temperature.  That means that probably EVERY adult has seen hotter December, January, February and March periods, and old farts like me for certain.  I think the temps in the last big El Niño (1998) peaked higher than this one, if memory serves.

Just sayin'... Don't believe anything you hear, and only half of what you read.

Remember the Golden Rule: you do me, and I\'ll do you (paraphrased)


Offline Lois

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Reply #57 on: April 20, 2016, 09:39:55 AM
As Liz says, the effects of global warming are all around us:

Just 7% of Australia's Great Barrier Reef escapes bleaching
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-36080615



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Reply #58 on: April 20, 2016, 06:16:48 PM
Speaking of "cherry picking": THIS.

The latest data from Japan; "March" from 1890 to 2016:

<pix with only YEAR averages omitted... rolls eyes>

No human alive has experienced a March as hot as the one we just had.

Or February.

Or January.

Or December.

Or...


Umm, you know, it's easy to blow holes in that set of statements.  It's utterly false, and I can prove it quite simply: I read the weather EVERY DAY.  When we have record rainfalls, they report it.  When they have record highs, lows, lowest high, highest low, they report it.  It's been a hilariously long time since I remember a RECORD REPORT with a high temperature.  That means that probably EVERY adult has seen hotter December, January, February and March periods, and old farts like me for certain.  I think the temps in the last big El Niño (1998) peaked higher than this one, if memory serves.

Just sayin'... Don't believe anything you hear, and only half of what you read.

The classic (deliberate) conflation of "my local weather" with "the global climate".

DO you think you could win $20k with that?

https://ecowatch.com/2016/04/20/bill-nye-challenges-joe-bastardi/




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Reply #59 on: April 20, 2016, 08:40:07 PM
You guys keep quoting time periods that are irrelevant to me.
I know the 100's of years and 1000's of years and even further back make for some great graphs, (But so what), What I'm seeing right now is what affects me and will continue to affect me. The temperature's are rising (not some huge amount) but they are rising enough to cause change in agriculture, They are changing the patterns of "heat cycles" in animals, The changes will and do affect all of us "right now". And I'm pretty sure that to some extent the changes are causing a change in snowfall across the country. So the real question isn't where have we been but where are we going and how much more of a change can we and or the planet take.

Love,
Liz
 


WOO!!  I would like to tease you about "heat cycles" but what you just wrote is spot on.   8)

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