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Offline Lois

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Reply #200 on: October 01, 2018, 05:40:11 AM
A global $500 / ton carbon tax would probably solve the CO2 emissions problem in 2-3 decades, but Trump is far from the only politician standing in the way of that.

That's weird.  I posted this (along with an acknowledgement that there was a lot more that cars emitting CO2), part of it got quoted, now it's gone?  WTF?

I found it in the recycling center.  I think it was accidentially deleted, but it is back now.



Offline Athos_131

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Reply #201 on: October 01, 2018, 05:43:16 AM
You DID read that article before you posted it, right?

With Athos, it's pretty hard to tell.  When he posts 5 articles within as many minutes, it hardly seems likely he read them all completely.

Maybe I read them on my phone and liked them on twitter to post later when I got to my PC?

No one is forcing you to read my posts.

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Offline Katiebee

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Reply #202 on: October 01, 2018, 05:52:26 AM
Well you guys finally managed to move this to 1408. Let’s try to not have a repeat performance of this.

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Offline RopeFiend

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Reply #203 on: October 05, 2018, 02:36:07 AM

September 2018 - coolest September in the last 10 years, according to Dr. Roy Spencer.



I'm still not seeing any effect from the rising CO2.  'Course then again, I've already covered that (many posts ago).  CO2 isn't anywhere near as effective as a 'greenhouse gas' as water vapor is, so it's swamped by normal weather patterns.  Even at the poles, where water vapor is the lowest, they've never been able to detect a temperature shift that can be attributed to the steadily rising CO2.

If you look back at my earlier post, ALL of those jumps and drops above are due to the PDO, the Pacific Decadal Oscillation, aka El Niño and La Niña.  There's one spot where it drops a little due to a volcano, the rest is the PDO.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2018, 02:40:42 AM by RopeFiend »

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psiberzerker

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Reply #204 on: October 05, 2018, 02:57:54 AM
CO2 isn't anywhere near as effective as a 'greenhouse gas' as water vapor is, so it's swamped by normal weather patterns.

As I've already said, there are 2 Allotropes of Water Vapor.  1 (Ambient Humidity) is a greenhouse Gas, and the other one is called Cloud Cover.  That reflects light before it hits the surface, and heats it up.

Also, we have no control over Humidity.  We do have control over the Carbon Dioxide that we release into the atmosphere.  So, regardless of how "Effective" you think it is, that is the lever, and the fulcrum with which we swing the Albedo back, and forth.  (Incidentally, that's an allusion to Archemedes.)

Quote
Even at the poles, where water vapor is the lowest, they've never been able to detect a temperature shift that can be attributed to the steadily rising CO2.

The poles, where the average incidence of solar heat is lowest (Across the year) the Reflectivity of the surface (Snow is right up there with Cloud Cover for reflecting light before it heats the surface) the Carbon Dioxide released by man is the least, and generally every single factor is at a minimum.  Therefore, there is no appreciable effect, because the energy coming in, the surface heating, and the Greenhouse Effect is barely measurable.  So basically, your evidence is as ideal as possible for proving it's all a hoax, ad we can all sigh with relief.  Now, measure it again at the Middle East, where Humidity is negligible, CO2 is concentrated, (Because of local consumption of the naturally occuring Fossil Fuel fields, Refineries, and shipping of distallates.  Not to mention Sheiks driving around in Stutz Bearcats.) and the surface is fucking hot.

Amazing what you can prove if you decide the conclusion first, then look for the evidence to support it.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2018, 03:01:06 AM by psiberzerker »



Offline Levorotatory

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Reply #205 on: October 05, 2018, 03:06:53 AM

September 2018 - coolest September in the last 10 years, according to Dr. Roy Spencer.



I'm still not seeing any effect from the rising CO2.  'Course then again, I've already covered that (many posts ago).  CO2 isn't anywhere near as effective as a 'greenhouse gas' as water vapor is, so it's swamped by normal weather patterns.  Even at the poles, where water vapor is the lowest, they've never been able to detect a temperature shift that can be attributed to the steadily rising CO2.

If you look back at my earlier post, ALL of those jumps and drops above are due to the PDO, the Pacific Decadal Oscillation, aka El Niño and La Niña.  There's one spot where it drops a little due to a volcano, the rest is the PDO.
But the coldest September in the last 10 years is still above the 40 year average, and an upward trend over the entire period covered by the data is readily apparent.  Fluctuations such as the PDO are there, but successive highs go higher and successive lows don't go quite as low because they are superimposed on an upward trend.

September was actually well below the long term average in my part of the world, but even there a long term upward trend is still clear:



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Reply #206 on: October 05, 2018, 03:10:03 AM


Unfortunately, that's not as good a graph as RF's.  Sorry, the temperature in Edmonton in September is a minute slice of the Global Mean Temp across the entire year.

Unfortunately, RF's graph is an isolated part of the data set, just not nearly as isolated as yours, on 3 axes.



Offline RopeFiend

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Reply #207 on: October 05, 2018, 04:14:37 AM
I'm so sorry you can't read...

GLOBAL SATELLITE MEASUREMENT OF LOWER ATMOSPHERE TEMPERATURE is GLOBAL, and isn't affected by local variations.  Especially compared to a weather station that's located either IN or next to a CITY.  Have you ever heard of a 'heat island'?  No?  Lemme clue you in: ANY weather station near a large city is impacted by the heat generated by the city.  As the city grows, so does the heat island.  I've regularly seen storm systems approach Dallas, and get blown away when they hit our heat bubble.

Quote
Edmonton Population Growth. Population growth in Edmonton has surpassed the national growth rate for more than 7 years, even as most of the country fell into an economic tailspin. Between 2006 and 2011 alone, the city and its metropolitan area grew by over 12%, well above the national growth rate of 5.9%.

That 12% growth rate is even higher than the small increase you're showing in YOUR graph, and is obviously affecting the heat island.

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Offline Levorotatory

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Reply #208 on: October 05, 2018, 04:58:30 AM

Unfortunately, that's not as good a graph as RF's.  Sorry, the temperature in Edmonton in September is a minute slice of the Global Mean Temp across the entire year.

Unfortunately, RF's graph is an isolated part of the data set, just not nearly as isolated as yours, on 3 axes.

That was kind of the point, that an upward trend was still evident in a limited dataset chosen because of an anomalously low final point.  I will have to concede the heat island effect though.  I originally thought the data were for the airport, which is well outside of the city, but they are actually for a relatively central location instead.  It is central enough to have been surrounded by at least 3 km of urban development for over 50 years, but the trend will still have been enhanced by continued sprawl.



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Reply #209 on: October 05, 2018, 05:03:18 AM
an anomalously low final point.

That data point was earned by a decade long international effort to work on the problem.  That's what kinda pisses me off.  We ARE fixing it, and then when the GMT goes down, somebody comes along and says "See, told you it was a hoax."  So was the Apollo mission.  It doesn't matter how much work the scientific community does, unless the end user gets to put it in their garage.  

If we built all those wind-turbines, doubled the average fuel economy, spent billions of dollars helping China convert from Coal, and it didn't go down.  That would be an anomaly.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2018, 05:05:08 AM by psiberzerker »



Offline Athos_131

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Reply #210 on: October 08, 2018, 04:25:09 AM
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 04:30:21 AM by Athos_131 »

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Offline Athos_131

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Reply #211 on: October 09, 2018, 02:46:38 AM
The People Choosing to Do Nothing About Climate Change Will Be Fine

Quote
In other words, there’s nothing to indicate that we, human civilization, will ever get our shit together, let alone in time to stop the worst of climate change.

There are three very simple reasons for this:

Capitalism would need to radically transformed in such a way that it would functionally be something different, and very few governments will be willing to do this.

Most of the people who are making the explicit decision to not do shit about this now will be dead by the time conditions are apocalyptic.

The people who are making that decision now who won’t be dead are going to be just fine by the time conditions are apocalyptic.

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Reply #212 on: October 09, 2018, 03:45:28 AM
Capitalism would need to radically transformed in such a way that it would functionally be something different, and very few governments will be willing to do this.

If I may, this is a bit of Socioeconomic (The Science) Speculative Fiction, but there is a way that Could, theoretically be supported by the Industrialized nations.  (The non-industrialized ones need not participate.)

An Energy Economy.  One of the factors that drives this, ultimately to the Critical Point where the cost of extracting the remaining mineral reserves (By processes like Frakking) meets the profits to be gained by selling them to be burned.  Basically, Energy<Money.  Where "Energy" is defined by "Energy Companies" which buy up more efficient renewable technologies to prevent them from competing with what they have.  You can see this in the Automotive Industry.  For example, it's not technically legal to produce a Rotary Engine car, in America, because Chrystler bought the Patent Rights for the Wankel, and any other Rotary Engine vehicles, in the US.  You can buy a Mazda RS-8, because that's Japanese, but you can't make one here, without paying Royalties to Chrystler/Mopar et-al, which they won't grant without driving the price up to make them unaffordable.  

Also, why the first American Electric Vehicle was called the Impact.  So they could say "We tried," and the only affordable electric cars are the likes of the Nissan Leaf.  Same with the Infrastructure, there's no Charging stations, and behold there's no Capacitance fast-charging technologies under development, nor even being Researched (Even though I can draw you a schematic circuit, to show you how to rapid-discharge a capacitor into an onboard Inducter, and for all intents and purposes fully charge one, Instantly.  The Capacitor in the Charging Station would take a while to charge up, between vehicles.)  Ever fatal flaw, perceived to be intrinsic to electric car technology, is kept that way, by the Big 3 buying up patents, and supressing industries, basically so they don't have to re-tool and make something else.  

That's why we still have reciprcating piston internal combustion engines in our Hybrids.  That's an Electrical motor we can use, because instead of a large enough Battery, it's hooked up to a Gas Tank, and a half ton engine block.  As long as the Frankenmotor burns it marginally more efficiently, we continue burning Fossil Fuels.  More efficiently.

If we have an Energy Economy, the Energy=Money.  Saving Money=Saving Energy, and quite soon, these Industry Inertia standards like Economies of Scale can no longer overshadow the truth of Free Energy.  There's another problem, you know the Power Company?  They sell you Energy, for Power.  The government subsidizes this, so they can maintain a nationwide Power grid, and sell Security by making us More Vulnerable to the EMPs of a Nuclear attack (Solar storm, Geomagnetic polar shift...)  

When honestly, we're surrounded by Energy.  it's been marketed as Renuable Energy, Clean Energy, Green Energy, I don't know if you've had someone knock on your door offering Wind Energy or not, but those people who've asked you if you pay the Electric Bills, with clipboards, and 2 button shirts with neat logos on the breast?  They're there to sell you clean, grean not mean energy from the nearest Wind Farm, and tell you that the money flowing out your Wired with every coulumb of electrons (Per second.  incidentally, the Electrons flow the other way.  Basically because Franklin guessed wrong, and by the time anyone noticed, the international standards for +, and - were already set.  Why the electron has a "Negative" charge, and the Antimater particle is called a "Positron" when it's prefectly arbitrary.)

Basically, everyone could produce the power we need for our homes, anywhere.  Off the grid.  The grid itself is an artifact of the pissing match between Edison, and tesla over a century ago.  Just like we're using the "Suck Squeeze Bang, and Blow" from Henry Ford, their drinking buddy.  (Not to mention Marconi's at the same table.)  Now, the sales pitch is "Solar Energy."  With the exception of Geothermal, and Nuclear, ALL of our energy is Solar.  Wind, Hydro-electric, Rain, burning wood in a camp fire, even Petroleum, and Coal was sequestored from Photosynthesis as recently as the Pleistecine.  We have energy, falling on us, constantly, with enough Rads to give you Skin Cancer, and yet in this enlightened age, we have phrases like "Off the Grid" because we all grew up On the Grid.

It's protected by the government, as critical as the Big 3 (Obama bailed out to protect our Economy) and the Federal Reserve System.  We the people could do it, fo an average o about $7-8,000.00 per household, that would pay for itself in a few years of Utility bills.  I know, because I've done it, multiple times, for a living in New Mexico.  (Across the gorge Bridge you see in all those movies, on the mesa west of Taos.)

Or, you know.  keep buying into all that, top off your tanks, and pay your electric bills.  Never mind the fact that they're literally called The Power Companies.

#Resist
« Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 03:47:56 AM by psiberzerker »



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Reply #213 on: October 09, 2018, 03:52:24 AM
You know the sound a capacitive charging circuit makes?  The same sound the flash on disposable cameras did.  You remember disposable cameras before we had smart phones?  Okay, the sound Tony Stark's repulsors make before they fire.  Or defribulators do in medical dramas like ER.  

That sound, that circuit could charge That {Points} Tesla, that fast.   This is not a new technology.  I don't know who owns the Patent rights to use that to charge an electric car, through the 2 ton Electric Motors that drive them (That would be the Inductor, wired directly to the Power Supply, already onboard) but I have 3 guesses.

I guarantee you that enough energy hits the roof of your home to charge your car, in 24 hours.  I live in an Aeroemate step-van, and I can do it with the 6/10" roof panel with quite a bit of reinforcement.  The only reason we don't, is because this technology, 19teens technology, is being supressed by the Power, Energy, and Motor companies, so they can keep you on the grid, and at the gas station.  So they don't have to retool, and stop making V-6es.

Now, who wants to talk Clean Coal?  Thermodynamics?  Who wants to talk about the Science behind Climate Change?  Because so far, this thread has been about the Politics.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 04:12:52 AM by psiberzerker »



Offline Athos_131

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Reply #214 on: January 31, 2019, 03:32:52 AM

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Offline joan1984

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Reply #215 on: January 31, 2019, 04:16:40 AM
Pretty much the same one 'guy' who always finds a way to move subjects away from open discussion to 1408, me thinks... How could KB "resist"...

Well you guys finally managed to move this to 1408. Let’s try to not have a repeat performance of this.

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but they bring a smile to your face as they fall down stairs.


Offline Athos_131

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Reply #216 on: January 31, 2019, 04:40:16 AM
Pretty much the same one 'guy' who always finds a way to move subjects away from open discussion to 1408, me thinks... How could KB "resist"...

Quit whining because your trolling, lies and conspiracy theories have been repeatedly exposed by me.

Go masturbate to Trump's pee tape.

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Offline Lois

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Reply #217 on: January 31, 2019, 04:59:42 AM
It seems the current freeze in the north east and Northern mid-west was caused by climate change:

Quote
Scientists are seeing signs that global weather patterns toward the latter half of January and into February may shift significantly to usher in severe winter weather for parts of the U.S. and Europe.

How it works: The possible changes are being triggered by a sudden and drastic warming of the air in the stratosphere, some 100,000 feet above the Arctic, and by a resulting disruption of the polar vortex — an area of low pressure at high altitudes near the pole that, when disrupted, can wobble like a spinning top and send cold air to the south. In this case, it could split into three pieces, and those pieces would determine who gets hit the hardest.

The big picture: Studies show that what happens in the Arctic does not stay in the Arctic, and rapid Arctic warming may paradoxically be leading to more frequent cold weather outbreaks in Europe, Asia and North America, particularly later in the winter.

During the past 2 weeks, a sudden stratospheric warming event has taken place, showing up first in the Siberian Arctic, and then spreading over the North Pole.

Such events occur when large atmospheric waves surge beyond the troposphere and into the layer of air above it. Such a vertical transport of energy can rapidly warm the stratosphere, and set in motion a chain reaction that disrupts the stratospheric polar vortex.

Sudden stratospheric warming events are known to affect the weather in the U.S. and Europe on a time delay — typically on the order of a week to several weeks later, and their effects may persist for more than a month.

"In general, we see colder than normal temperatures over much of the U.S. and Europe/Northern Asia, and warmer than normal temperatures over Greenland and subtropical Africa/Asia" in the 60 days following sudden stratospheric warming events, Amy Butler, a research scientist at the Cooperative Institute for Research in Environmental Sciences, told Axios in an email.

What's next: Polar vortex projections show it's likely to split into possibly as many as 3 "sister vortices," spilling cold air out of the Arctic and concentrating it in spots across Eurasia and North America.

In the past, polar vortex splits have been associated with major snowstorms, including 2010, when the Mid-Atlantic region was buried by blizzards.

A sudden stratospheric warming event and polar vortex disruption was associated with several March snowstorms in the Northeast last winter, as well as the "Beast from the East" cold spell in Europe
.
Such events can have major ramifications for energy markets, leading to natural gas price spikes, for example.

What they're saying: “Arctic change has increased the frequency of these polar vortex disruption events and following these polar vortex disruption events you get more severe winter weather," says Judah Cohen, director of seasonal forecasting at AER, a Verisk company, who studies the connections between Arctic climate change and altered weather patterns.

Cohen and Michael Ventrice, a meteorologist at The Weather Company, told Axios that there are increasing signs of high pressure forming over the North Atlantic near Greenland as well as close to the North Pole in late January, which can block the progress of weather systems moving from west to east.

Such blocking patterns may be a manifestation of the polar vortex disruption, and favor colder and stormier weather in the eastern U.S. and parts of Europe.

“Eventually we do think this blocking will set up,” Ventrice said. “I would not give up on winter.”

https://www.axios.com/polar-vortex-is-about-to-split-up-5c2e7460-67fb-49da-b73a-079ffbe205b9.html



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Reply #218 on: January 31, 2019, 01:16:07 PM
It seems the current freeze in the north east and Northern mid-west was caused by climate change:

Yes, Global Warming.  It's counter-intuitive, but heat is the energy of Entropy, Change, and Chaos.  It's what drives Wind, Storms, and Weather.  Honestly, the bubble over Siberia was cause by Coal in China, and it's delayed by several years, because it causes the Atmosphere to change.  And the Atmosshere changes slowly over time.

The Greenhouse effect takes a while to build up, which is why it takes a while to warm up during the day, the coldest part of the year (In the northern Hemisphere) is January, and Febuary, even though the Solstice is in December.  Also, most of the warming happens over the water where nobody lives, because that's most of the surface of the Earth, and that disparity is increasing as ice caps melt, and sea levels rise.

That's one of several runaway effects.  It's not just Carbon Monoxide levels growing an at an exponential rate (A lot of the CO2, and Methane were trapped in glacial ice, methane breaks down into more CO2) the ice caps themselves were more reflective, instead of absorbing sunlight, their melting also increases the rate of the Albedo changing.

These exponential changes are why we need to do something NOW, while our pollution is still strong enough to sway the rate of change one way, or the other.  Because once the antarctic ice shelf is gone, or too far gone, we can't just replace it in our lifetimes.  It took millions of years to build up from natural snowfall, and that water will mostly go into the oceans, which are mostly equatorial, and tropical.  Not enough light shines on the poles for that little ice to buffer us against the rapid shift in global climate.

Also, water has the highest albedo of any other surface on Earth, because sunlight (The energy that causes all this Heat) penetrates it, and is absorbed over depths of hundreds of meters.  The solid surfaces either reflect, or absorb ever photon on their surfaces, but water traps heat orders of magnitude more efficiently, And for longer.  It's not just our atmosphere that's warming up, it's also our Hydrospere.  Again, we don't live over water, we live over land, which is shrinking.

We live close to water, which is flooding, and destroying Our Habitat.  It's also where our Storms come from.  Katrina, and Sandy pick up our waste heat over water, then eventually hit land, destructively.  Bringing storm surges, and rain to flood us out before the oceans rise to permanently cover our ports (And raising the Albedo further...)

It's already impacting our lives, and it's only getting more unpredictable, because that's what Heat does.  If you want to preserve something, anything, or slow down any reaction, you freeze it.  If you want to accelerate it, anything, just add heat.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 01:21:39 PM by psiberzerker »



psiberzerker

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Reply #219 on: January 31, 2019, 01:32:45 PM
Pretty much the same one 'guy' who always finds a way to move subjects away from open discussion to 1408, me thinks... How could KB "resist"...

The 1 guy that's arguing.   :roll:  It takes 2 to argue, what are you doing?  Blaming "The same guy" for arguing, when he hasn't been the only one, nor even the primary one, turning this into a fight.  What effect did you expect from this "Resist"ance?  Athos would just calm down, and admit you're right?  Your feelings will magically become unhurt, and the world will just go back to what you believe it used to be?

No, you seek out conflict, here, and when you don't find enough of it, you call people out to make more of a fight.  Which is fine, it's in 1408 where it honestly always belonged, because unscientific ignorant stubborn emotional wretches like you are "resist"ing the change by sticking your head in the sand, and pretending that it's not happening.

It's happening, with or without you.