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The Trump thread: All things Donald

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Offline Lois

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Reply #3280 on: October 26, 2017, 05:26:25 PM
I was talking with a Republican freind of mine over our most recent local ballot that includes 3 bond issues.  He's voting NO on all of them because of a scandal over a development that happened over 10 years ago.  

"They've wasted enough of our money, so they should never get another dime!"

While I understand his frustration, the government provides essential services such as education for children and obligations such as caring for zoo animals in its care.  The bonds would help fund early childhood education and replace the crumbling sewer and water infrastructure serving the Reid Park Zoo.

Of course these are not the only needs Tucson faces as our roads are crumbling and the city looks more like Mexico than part of the USA.  And yet continually, nearly everyone votes no on tax increases and yet they still expect the same level of services from their government.

In the 1950's and 60's, everyone paid more in taxes and the resulting infrastructure this created caused our economy to boom.  Now we are in decline because no one wants to work together to build, via the government, what none of us can do alone.

At what point does being anti-tax mean being anti-civilization?  I sincerely believe that if you want America to be great again, pay your taxes so we can have a great country!

Recently California increased taxes and spending, and now the state is booming.  Compare that to Kansas, where they cut taxes and spending and now their economy is in the tank.

But of course tax increases are never popular, although prosperity is.  California v. Kansas has shown us the choice.  What choice would you make?

The following is an excerpt from an article by George Lakoff of Progressive taxation, and why the wealthy should pay more.

Progressive taxation—taxing the wealthy at higher rates than the
poor—is a moral issue. Like many moral issues, it sparks heated
debate. The debate is borne of conflicting worldviews, values, and
understandings of values. But as we at the Rockridge Institute have
written, when progressives understand the values and ideas that
underlie their positions on issues, they can articulate arguments
authentically and with greater persuasive force. These arguments will
appeal to those whom we call biconceptuals—the great majority of
Americans whose worldviews borrow in various ways from both
progressive and conservative values.

America’s government has at least two fundamental functions,
protection and empowerment. Protection includes the police,
firefighters, emergency services, public health, the military, and so
on. Empowerment includes the infrastructure needed for business and
everyday life: roads, communications systems, water supplies, public
education, the banking system for loans and economic stability, the
SEC for the stock market, the courts for enforcing contracts, air
traffic control, support for basic science, our national parks and
public buildings, and more. We are usually aware of protection. But
the empowerment infrastructure, provided by taxes, is usually taken
for granted, hidden, or ignored. Yet it is absolutely crucial, a
fundamental truth about America and why America provides opportunity.

This is a basic truth. That is what framing should be about: revealing
truths and allowing us to reason using them.

Taxes are part of our common wealth, what we all share. Protection and
empowerment serve the common good. Because of our common wealth, we
are all protected and America’s empowering infrastructure is available
to all. That is a fundamental America value: the common wealth should
serve the common good. It benefits everyone.

Citizens are financially responsible to maintain this common wealth.
If we shirked this responsibility, we could not maintain our roads,
fund our schools, protect ourselves from military threats, enforce our
laws, and so on. Equally importantly, we could not create prosperity
for ourselves, because we would have no protection of our intellectual
property, no oversight of our markets, no means to enforce our
contracts, no way to educate most of our children.

Several main progressive values support the idea of progressive
taxation. One is the belief that the common wealth should be used for
the common good. Another is responsibility, the responsibility that
citizens have to pay for the benefits we receive from our common
wealth. And still another is fairness. These values intertwine on the
question of progressive taxation.

Few people dispute this responsibility at some level. Disagreements
generally arise over the amount and the relative apportionment of the
responsibility. Differing concepts of fairness drive this debate.
While many progressives say it is only fair that those who earn more
pay a higher percentage of their earnings as taxes compared to those
who have difficulty making ends meet, conservatives respond by
asserting that it is unfair to “punish” the financially successful by
making them pay more.

An important point often lost in this debate is an appreciation that
the common wealth, which our taxes create and sustain, empowers the
wealthy in myriad ways to create their wealth. We call this compound
empowerment — the compounded use of the common wealth by corporations,
their investors, and other wealthy individuals.

Consider Bill Gates. He started Microsoft as a college dropout and has
become the world’s richest person. Though he has undoubtedly benefited
from his unusual intelligence and business acumen, he could not have
created or sustained his personal wealth without the common wealth.
The legal system protected Microsoft’s intellectual property and
contracts. The tax-supported financial infrastructure enabled him to
access capital markets and trade his stock in a market in which
investors have confidence. He built his company with many employees
educated in public schools and universities. Tax-funded research
helped develop computer science and the internet. Trade laws
negotiated and enforced by the government protect his ability to sell
his products abroad. These are but a few of the ways in which Mr.
Gates’ accumulation of wealth was empowered by the common wealth and
by taxation.

As Warren Buffet famously observed, he likely couldn’t have achieved
his financial success had he been born in Bangladesh instead of the
United States, because Bangladesh had no banking system and no stock
market.

Ordinary people just drive on the highways; corporations send fleets
of trucks. Ordinary people may get a bank loan for their mortgage;
corporations borrow money to buy whole companies. Ordinary people
rarely use the courts; most of the courts are used for corporate law
and contract disputes. Corporations and their investors — those who
have accumulated enough money beyond basic needs so they can invest —
make much more use, compound use, of the empowering infrastructure
provided by everybody’s tax money.

The wealthy have made greater use of the common good—they have been
empowered by it in creating their wealth—and thus they have a greater
moral obligation to sustain it. They are merely paying their debt to
society in arrears and investing in future empowerment.

This is the fundamental truth that motivates progressive taxation.

It is a truth that undercuts conservative arguments about taxation.
Taxes provide and maintain the protecting and empowering
infrastructure that makes our income possible.

Our tax forms hide this truth. They do not indicate the extent to
which taxes have created and sustained the common wealth so you could
earn what you have. They make it look like the empowering
infrastructure was just put there by magic and that the government is
taking money out of your pocket. The most likely truth is that,
through the common wealth, America put more money in your pocket than
it took out — by far.

But this situation is threatened by conservative tax policy. Through
unfair cuts in taxes paid by the wealthy, through payment for the invasion
and occupation of Iraq, and through borrowing abroad to pay for the tax cuts
and Iraq, the common wealth is being drained and the infrastructure allowed to
fall apart. We need to return to a fair tax policy that recognizes financial
responsibility incurred by the compound use of America’s empowering
infrastructure.

Note: This essay was inspired by a recent question submitted to the
Rockridge Institute. Learn how you can ask Rockridge.



Offline Lois

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Reply #3281 on: October 26, 2017, 05:30:01 PM
Factoring in the current 3% GDP, and growing with the reforms proposed, who believes the tax plan, yet to be finalized, will result in less revenue to Federal Government over the coming years?

Part of the result is expected to bring 3 or more Trillion back to the US from overseas accounts, with the more reasonable rate structure. Is that factored into your calculation, Lois?


Trump's tax cuts will likely add over $5 trillion to the national debt in the next ten years.  So much for the GOP being the party of fiscal responsibility.

You mean like it worked for Kansas?

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/06/kansas-repubicans-gop-small-governement-brownback/

What Congress can learn from Sam Brownback: Kansas tax cuts were bad policy and bad politics
http://www.kansascity.com/opinion/opn-columns-blogs/dave-helling/article180667216.html

As Trump Proposes Tax Cuts, Kansas Deals With Aftermath Of Experiment
http://www.npr.org/2017/10/25/560040131/as-trump-proposes-tax-cuts-kansas-deals-with-aftermath-of-experiment
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 05:36:23 PM by Lois »



Offline Katiebee

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Reply #3282 on: October 26, 2017, 06:29:56 PM
Factoring in the current 3% GDP, and growing with the reforms proposed, who believes the tax plan, yet to be finalized, will result in less revenue to Federal Government over the coming years?

Part of the result is expected to bring 3 or more Trillion back to the US from overseas accounts, with the more reasonable rate structure. Is that factored into your calculation, Lois?


Trump's tax cuts will likely add over $5 trillion to the national debt in the next ten years.  So much for the GOP being the party of fiscal responsibility.


the money will not be coming back . Part of it will, most will be put out to investors. Very little will be accessed as revenue in taxes, very little will go toward business infrastructure or wages for any one other than executives and board members.

Even the GAO is saying Trumps numbers are unrealistically optimistic, as are several conservative think tanks.

There are three kinds of people in the world. Those who can count, and those who can't.


Offline joan1984

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Reply #3283 on: October 26, 2017, 08:35:54 PM
The point of money earned overseas, taxes paid overseas, not being taxed again by the U.S., or being taxed minimally to facilitate bringing that money in to our economy, paying wages or business infrastructure, all contribute to uses of that money better than those Trillions laying in foreign bank accounts.

How can repatriating Trillions of dollars to be spent in the US not be a good thing. How can individual prosperity not be a good thing for the US? Boosting prosperity, letting people keep the money they earn, or keep more of it, make their own decisions about where best to apply newfound wealth, to savings, to purchases for their comfort, to a better home, to their children's educations or their own educations, all are good things for our economy.

Curbing awards of grants and programs which are non-productive is essential, to reserve taxpayer funds for the necessary items required of Government. If not considered 'essential' then the money should not be spent/squandered in that manner. Federal money even moreso, as we simply have less control over the end results being beneficial, and again, if not essential, don't spend it.


Factoring in the current 3% GDP, and growing with the reforms proposed, who believes the tax plan, yet to be finalized, will result in less revenue to Federal Government over the coming years?

Part of the result is expected to bring 3 or more Trillion back to the US from overseas accounts, with the more reasonable rate structure. Is that factored into your calculation, Lois?


Trump's tax cuts will likely add over $5 trillion to the national debt in the next ten years.  So much for the GOP being the party of fiscal responsibility.


the money will not be coming back . Part of it will, most will be put out to investors. Very little will be accessed as revenue in taxes, very little will go toward business infrastructure or wages for any one other than executives and board members.

Even the GAO is saying Trumps numbers are unrealistically optimistic, as are several conservative think tanks.

Some people are like the 'slinky'. Not really good for much,
but they bring a smile to your face as they fall down stairs.


Offline Lois

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Reply #3284 on: October 26, 2017, 11:35:24 PM
The point of money earned overseas, taxes paid overseas, not being taxed again by the U.S., or being taxed minimally to facilitate bringing that money in to our economy, paying wages or business infrastructure, all contribute to uses of that money better than those Trillions laying in foreign bank accounts.

Can you re-word this using complete sentences and not a series of sentence fragments?  Ugh, my head hurts trying to make sense of it.

Quote
How can repatriating Trillions of dollars to be spent in the US not be a good thing. How can individual prosperity not be a good thing for the US? Boosting prosperity, letting people keep the money they earn, or keep more of it, make their own decisions about where best to apply newfound wealth, to savings, to purchases for their comfort, to a better home, to their children's educations or their own educations, all are good things for our economy.

Because the money won't be spent here.  Rich people don't spend money.  This has been the problem with trickle down all along.  All they do is put it back in a loop of investments that never actually get used to create jobs.  At most they consolidate, buy-out, and lay people off.




Offline Lois

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Reply #3285 on: October 26, 2017, 11:39:48 PM
78 percent of Puerto Ricans are still without electricity, 28 percent are without water and access to food and fuel is still limited.

Shame on you Trump!



Offline Athos_131

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Reply #3286 on: October 27, 2017, 12:12:37 AM
I'd like to see the math from that yellow wall of rigamrole.

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Offline Lois

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Reply #3287 on: October 27, 2017, 04:43:50 AM
There is no math. But there is Kansas!



Offline Athos_131

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Reply #3288 on: October 27, 2017, 05:52:08 AM
78 percent of Puerto Ricans are still without electricity, 28 percent are without water and access to food and fuel is still limited.

Shame on you Trump!


Congressional committee asks for records of Whitefish Energy deal


Quote
Under the contract, Whitefish is charging $330 an hour for a site supervisor and $227.88 an hour for a “journeyman lineman.” The cost for subcontractors, which make up the bulk of Whitefish’s workforce, is $462 per hour for a supervisor and $319.04 for a lineman.

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4113619-Whitefish-Contract-Signed-10-17-Copy.html#document/p1



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Offline Lois

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Reply #3289 on: October 27, 2017, 09:46:15 PM
Collusion between Russia and the Trump campaign may never be proven, but that did not mean it didnt happen.  But just as importantly, I believe a willingness by the Trump campaign to work with Russia to get Trump elected has been shown.  So much for "nationalism".

What follows is an article about the congressional investigation.  The Mueller investigation is separate and has access to more evidence.

GOP eyes end of Russia probes with Trump collusion unanswered
Democrats are likely to be divided over whether to endorse conclusions that don’t address the most explosive issue.
By KYLE CHENEY and ELANA SCHOR

Republican lawmakers say they’re approaching the end of their investigations into Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election even though the most politically explosive issue — whether associates of President Donald Trump colluded with the Kremlin — remains unresolved.

That will present Democrats who have spent a year amplifying suspicions about Trump’s own ties to Russia with a wrenching choice: to join Republicans and set aside the most momentous aspect of their probes — or to break from the GOP and end any chance of presenting a united front against a continuing Russian threat.

Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman Richard Burr (R-N.C.) has suggested his panel’s investigation will end early next year, emphasizing that he wants to wrap up by February, ahead of the first 2018 primary elections.

His panel still has a long list of witnesses to interview, but Burr described the timeline as a "mathematical equation," one pitting the ability of the committee to schedule meetings against the calendar. And he’s hinted it’s possible the report will find no evidence of collusion between Trump allies and Moscow.

“If there’s evidence that there was something there, that will be laid out. If there’s no evidence, how could anybody object to it?” Burr said.

Rep. Mike Conaway (R-Texas), who’s leading the House Intelligence Committee’s Russia probe, told POLITICO this week that he hopes to finish before the Senate.

Conaway said he intends to seek a meeting with Burr, as well as the House and Senate committees’ top Democrats — Rep. Adam Schiff of California and Sen. Mark Warner of Virginia — to sketch out their panels’ conclusions and attempt to generally align their reports. Wildly divergent conclusions, he said, could “embarrass the institution” and could send mixed messages about the urgency of the Russian threat.

Schiff said in an interview that he agrees with Conaway on the need for a meeting of the four committee leaders as well as his drive to come to a unified bipartisan conclusion.

“I think, frankly, it would be a good idea for the four of us to be collaborating as we go along rather than wait until the conclusion of our investigation,” Schiff said. “I second Mike’s suggestion and actually think it would be worthwhile.”

But a kumbaya moment may be wishful thinking when it comes to questions about collusion.

In the House, and possibly the Senate as well, bringing the Russia probes to a close is likely to trigger a partisan showdown.

Some Republicans on the committees have publicly dismissed allegations that Trump allies might have helped Russia’s interference campaign. They’ve seen no conclusive evidence suggesting collusion occurred, and they’re weary after interviewing scores of witnesses who they say have shed little new light on the matter.

“We’ve hit the point of diminishing returns long ago,” said Sen. Jim Risch (R-Idaho.) “We’ve looked at lots of stuff. At some point in time, the jury needs to reach a verdict.”

Warner didn't rule out the possibility of a meeting with Burr, Conaway and Schiff, though he dismissed as "preliminary" an effort to stave off a partisan splintering.

"We're still operating in a very collaborative fashion," Warner said in an interview.

Democrats, though, seem increasingly resigned to the fact that their probes may end without a conclusion on whether any Americans aided the Russian interference effort.

“It’s quite possible that six months from now, there will be unanswered questions that we can’t answer because the people we would need to answer those questions are in Russia,” said Rep. Jim Himes (D-Conn.). “The probability that we’re going to produce a report that buttons down every question is pretty low.”

Warner has said he’d readily accept it if the Senate investigation finds no evidence of collusion.

f there’s not something there, I’ll be the first to acknowledge that,” the Virginia Democrat told The New York Times this week.

The painful choice for Democrats is whether to attempt to forge a fragile compromise with Republicans that depicts what both parties generally agree on: that Russia orchestrated a massive interference campaign to undermine U.S. politics and stoke intense division. That would likely mean abandoning a definitive determination on collusion — or punting to special counsel Robert Mueller, who’s leading a criminal probe of possible crimes connected to the Russian plot.

But even Democratic unity on those questions may be challenging.

"I’m not signing on to any report unless it’s a bipartisan report," Sen. Joe Manchin (D-W.Va.), a member of the intelligence panel, said in an interview.

Manchin also disputed the notion that "we're going to be that far apart" in the end.

"It’s up to us to come together and say, 'OK, we agree,'" he added.

Schiff and fellow California Rep. Eric Swalwell, two of the most outspoken House Intelligence Committee Democrats, say they too hope for unity but emphasized that despite the absence of a smoking gun, they’ve seen compelling evidence of Trump allies’ “intent to collude.”

“We may not find the crime on videotape, but I believe we have already seen evidence of intent,” Swalwell said. “But our investigation is ongoing and we haven’t reached a conclusion.”

Swalwell pointed to a slew of storylines in which figures in Trump’s orbit contacted Kremlin-associated Russians. There’s the secret meeting with Kremlin-connected Russians that the president’s son, Donald Trump Jr., organized in Trump Tower ostensibly to obtain documents unfavorable to Hillary Clinton, as well as attempts by two Trump business associates to seek Kremlin help for a Trump Tower development in Moscow just as the presidential campaign was beginning in earnest.

There also are lingering questions about Trump’s first pick for national security adviser, Mike Flynn, and allegations he secretly assured Russia’s ambassador that Trump would lift Obama-imposed sanctions on Russia. And there’s the mysterious admission by a GOP operative, who claimed connections to the Trump campaign, that he sought help from Russians to expose thousands of emails deleted from Clinton’s private server.

“We’ve certainly seen evidence of an intention by the Trump campaign to collude with the Russians,” Schiff said. “I would hope that, at the end of the day, we’ll come to a common conclusion on that as well. I think it’s too early to say.”

Himes noted that new twists seem to emerge constantly, pointing to a Daily Beast report this week that a Trump campaign data firm, Cambridge Analytica, acknowledged approaching WikiLeaks to try to procure Clinton's deleted emails.

Schiff, who complained in a recent Washington Post op-ed that the White House was pressuring Congress to conclude its Russia probes, may also find allies among Senate Democrats who say there’s still a long way to go before they’ll feel satisfied they turned over every rock in the investigation.

"I want to get actionable items in place that can secure our voting infrastructure by" the time that primaries begin next year, Sen. Martin Heinrich (D-N.M.) said in an interview. "But I think we should follow the investigation where it takes us, irrespective of the timeframe."

Sen. Angus King, a Maine independent who caucuses with Democrats, also suggested he would have trouble signing on to any final report that left the collusion matter unresolved. "The report has to be comprehensive," King said in a brief interview.

How Republicans approach the issue of collusion, too, could determine whether Democrats join them.

Barring any dramatic new evidence, Republicans like Rep. Peter King of New York would like to plainly state that lawmakers found “no evidence” of collusion. But they worry that might turn off some Democrats.

“They’re too committed,” King said. “They’re so dug in on this.”

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/10/27/gop-russia-probes-trump-244217



Offline Athos_131

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Reply #3290 on: October 27, 2017, 11:59:50 PM
The real meat and potatoes are going to come from Robert Mueller anyway.

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Reply #3291 on: October 28, 2017, 01:31:43 AM
The real meat and potatoes are going to come from Robert Mueller anyway.

#Resist



Agreed, unless they also attempt to shut him down.



Offline Athos_131

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Reply #3292 on: October 28, 2017, 02:18:03 AM
Don't be surprised if they hamstring him by cutting his funding with the budget being passed.

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Offline Athos_131

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Reply #3293 on: October 28, 2017, 02:39:04 AM
Exclusive: First charges filed in Mueller investigation

Forecast: 90% of severe tweetstorms this weekend.

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Offline Athos_131

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Reply #3294 on: October 28, 2017, 02:52:45 AM

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Offline Northwest

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Reply #3295 on: October 28, 2017, 11:39:41 PM
Distract, deny, diffuse. Do you suppose it will work to confuse Mueller?

Trump team’s response to Russia news: Focus on Clinton, leaks or anything else

Caught off guard by reports of criminal charges in the Russia probe, Trump advisers sought to keep up their political attacks and divert attention from allegations of Russian collusion.


https://www.politico.com/story/2017/10/28/trump-russia-clinton-mueller-244271



Offline Athos_131

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Reply #3296 on: October 29, 2017, 02:52:06 AM

#BlackLivesMatter
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Offline Athos_131

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Reply #3297 on: October 30, 2017, 12:40:21 AM

#BlackLivesMatter
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Offline Athos_131

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Reply #3298 on: October 30, 2017, 01:17:42 AM
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 01:22:19 AM by Athos_131 »

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Reply #3299 on: October 30, 2017, 01:25:12 AM

#BlackLivesMatter
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