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The Trump thread: All things Donald

joan1984 · 277268

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Offline watcher1

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Reply #200 on: February 18, 2016, 08:40:23 PM
I just read about the Pope saying Trump is not a Christian.  The shoe now is on the other foot, with someone calling out Trump, and the someone being the Pope.  Gotta love it.

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IdleBoast

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Reply #201 on: February 18, 2016, 09:55:56 PM
GOP's response was, basically, that the Pope doesn't know what makes somebody a christian...

No matter what you think of Trump (or the Pope), that's just plain arrogant!






Offline Elizabeth

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Reply #202 on: February 19, 2016, 09:36:41 AM
I think the Pope should stay out of our politics, especially during an election year, and not to mention what makes a good Christian or not......The Pope has enough pedophile's in the church to worry about (hummm?...I wonder if they are good Christians.?).

Love,
Liz
   



IdleBoast

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Reply #203 on: February 19, 2016, 10:29:49 AM
I think the Pope should stay out of our politics...

Let's see, shall I go with...

I guess the head of the catholic church will stay out of US politics when the 72 million American catholics promise to stay out of US politics.

Or...

You can ask the head of the Vatican State to stop making comments about other nation's politics when the head of the American State stops stops sending troops to interfere with other nations' politics.

Or...

I think the 266th "generation" of Popes has a better handle on what makes a christian than a second-generation German immigrant has on what makes an American.

What do you think?





Offline Hoss

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Reply #204 on: February 19, 2016, 12:44:30 PM
Whilst I am Christian, I am not  Catholic so have inborn respect for the Pope....and not being American,have no real appreciation of the USA /Mexican challenges BUT surely Trump is not a viable option come November. ....the rest of the world shudders at what may happen...

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Offline Katiebee

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Reply #205 on: February 19, 2016, 02:07:20 PM
Did the world have the same opinion of the Austrian upstart?

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Offline joan1984

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Reply #206 on: February 19, 2016, 02:28:51 PM
  The Pope is demonstrating that his infallibility does not extend to political remarks.

   This Pope embraced the Castro brothers, who right now are incarcerating Cuba citizens, in preparation for President Obama's planned March 2016 visit, for who knows what good purpose.

   If the Pope was wishing to make comments about Catholics in the United States, he could have addressed abortion, and politicians who encourage abortion for nearly any reason, or maybe for every reason, and there are plenty to critique in that regard, to include: Vice President Joe Biden, who continues to receive Communion regularly; Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, ditto; and a whole list of others...

  The Pope is free to say whatever he wishes, or to be enticed into sound bites by a reporter, and express his own opinions... and everyone knows the value of an opinion...

  "...Mr. Pope, Tear Down This Wall..."
« Last Edit: February 19, 2016, 02:30:50 PM by joan1984 »

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Reply #207 on: February 19, 2016, 02:50:42 PM
  .. and everyone knows the value of an opinion...







Offline Lois

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Reply #208 on: February 19, 2016, 03:19:43 PM
The Vatican has city walls left over from the time of City States, when City walls were essential for the prevention of an armed invasion.

The walls Trump proposes along our southern borders are sought to keep out people fleeing oppression or seeking opportunity.  Of course such a wall would not really work.  We have a wall on many sections of the southern border.  People that want to get in just tunnel under it.  And such people tend to be those running drugs because they have the resources.



Offline MissBarbara

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Reply #209 on: February 19, 2016, 05:36:22 PM

I think the Pope should stay out of our politics, especially during an election year, and not to mention what makes a good Christian or not......The Pope has enough pedophile's in the church to worry about (hummm?...I wonder if they are good Christians.?).

Love,
Liz
   

The crass ignorance of this post is breathtaking.





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Offline Lois

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Reply #210 on: February 19, 2016, 06:18:54 PM
I think everyone has a right to an opinion.  I also think the Pope is qualified to speak on "What is Christianity" given his position.  No one has to agree with him of course, especially Protestants.  But in many instances, I find myself agreeing with this Pope.  He is not part of any regime that sought to cover up abuse of children, and he really seems to care about people.



Offline Elizabeth

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Reply #211 on: February 19, 2016, 10:18:17 PM

I think the Pope should stay out of our politics, especially during an election year, and not to mention what makes a good Christian or not......The Pope has enough pedophile's in the church to worry about (hummm?...I wonder if they are good Christians.?).

Love,
Liz
   

The crass ignorance of this post is breathtaking.





Not really....can you tell me when the government interfered with the church (In the US).? On the other hand the church has (shall we say) on many occasions had something to say about and to our government on just about everything.
And I think I read somewhere "that Church and State were suppose to be separate".

Love,
Liz



Offline Katiebee

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Reply #212 on: February 19, 2016, 10:44:09 PM
The Varican is a sovereign state that just happens to lay claim to religious and moral authority. A singularity in the world.

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Offline MissBarbara

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Reply #213 on: February 20, 2016, 12:11:32 AM

I think the Pope should stay out of our politics, especially during an election year, and not to mention what makes a good Christian or not......The Pope has enough pedophile's in the church to worry about (hummm?...I wonder if they are good Christians.?).

Love,
Liz
   

The crass ignorance of this post is breathtaking.





Not really....can you tell me when the government interfered with the church (In the US).? On the other hand the church has (shall we say) on many occasions had something to say about and to our government on just about everything.
And I think I read somewhere "that Church and State were suppose to be separate".

Love,
Liz



Note that use the word "interfered," on the one hand, and "say," on the other. Surely you don't mean that the two have the same meaning?

Please give me some examples of when "the church has (shall we say) on many occasions had something to say about and to our government on just about everything." More to the point, please provide examples of how the church has "interfered" in American politics or government.

As someone wrote above, in situations like this, the Pope's just a guy, and he can say whatever he wants. And we can accept or reject it as we see fit.

And the Pope has no right to define "what makes a good Christian or not"?!? That's his job!

Finally, please explain how a comment by the Pope violates separation of Church and State, either in its concept, or in it's definition in the First Amendment and subsequent court interpretations."

P.S. I will leave your vile and ignorant comment about pedophiles speak for itself.






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Offline Lois

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Reply #214 on: February 20, 2016, 02:59:09 AM
The First Amendment says Congress shall make no laws ....  No one but Congress is bound by the First Amendment.

But the Pope can say what he wants.  Of course no one really has to agree with him.



Offline Katiebee

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Reply #215 on: February 20, 2016, 04:36:49 AM
Seems to me quite a few people had a disagreement with a Pope. In fact there was a Pope who disagreed with a Pope.

Look it up, two Popes, one Catholic Church.

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Offline Elizabeth

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Reply #216 on: February 20, 2016, 09:23:41 AM
Pulpit Politics has a very long history where clergy have openly supported a certain candidate and then "recommended" that the members of the church do the same.
(and that's not isolated to the Catholic Church by any means).
As for the Pope himself, (unlike you or me) he's is in a position to have an effect on millions of followers world wide (where as you and I don't). He needs to temper his comments about what a "Good Christian is", and it's not his job by any means, he is a human just like any other person.
To my knowledge the US Government has never tried to influence the College of Cardinals in the selection of a pope (however, pulpit politics have always had their voice in our political structure).
As for "my vile" comments of pedophile priest (yes they might be vile and ugly)but they happen to be true and a part of history.......Check with the newspapers (Boston Globe) of the scandals of Boston and the Church. Remember, Archbishop Bernard Law stepped down from his position because of it.

Love,
Liz





Offline watcher1

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Reply #217 on: February 20, 2016, 03:37:20 PM
While the Pope did say that anyone who wants to build a wall to keep others out was not a Christian, he did not specifically name Trump.  He was answering a reporter's question.  Trump took it upon himself to think the Pope was referring to him.

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Offline MissBarbara

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Reply #218 on: February 20, 2016, 04:33:27 PM

Seems to me quite a few people had a disagreement with a Pope. In fact there was a Pope who disagreed with a Pope.

Look it up, two Popes, one Catholic Church.



There was a point in the early 15th century when there were THREE Popes, all of whom disagreed with one another, and each of whom deemed himself the true Pope. Now THAT'S confusing!

Regardless, everyone is free to disagree with the Pope, even Catholics. And the Pope is free to disagree with everyone, or anyone.

As someone mentioned above, Pope Francis never said that Trump wasn't a good Christian. He was posed a hypothetical question about a nameless presidential candidate, including a list of things that candidate proposed and stood for. The Pope, responding to the hypothetical, answered that a candidate who believed those thing was probably not a good Christian. And that's it.

One point worth noting: Many evangelical Christians despise Catholics and the Catholic Church and, to their eyes, Trump's being criticized by the Pope is a strong point in Trump's favor. And Trump, I'm sure, is perfectly aware of this.






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Offline MissBarbara

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Reply #219 on: February 20, 2016, 04:52:41 PM

Pulpit Politics has a very long history where clergy have openly supported a certain candidate and then "recommended" that the members of the church do the same.
(and that's not isolated to the Catholic Church by any means).


On the one hand, what, exactly, is wrong with a member of a clergy recommending a given candidate to his or her flock? If you think this is wrong, then do you also think it's wrong for, say, a union president to urge his or her members to support a given candidate?

On the other hand, please provide some examples from that "very long history" where a Pope or American Catholic leader has openly supported a given political candidate and urged his followers to do the same.

More to the point, there is a gross hypocrisy at work here. If an American Catholic prelate even hints at a suggesting a possible support of a candidate or issue, everyone is up in arms, screaming about a violation of separation of Church and State, etc. Meanwhile, candidates, and especially presidential candidates, routinely make appearances in Protestant churches and receive the explicit endorsement of the pastor, and no one bats an eye.



As for the Pope himself, (unlike you or me) he's is in a position to have an effect on millions of followers world wide (where as you and I don't). He needs to temper his comments about what a "Good Christian is", and it's not his job by any means, he is a human just like any other person.


Yes, the Pope is a human, "like you or me," but why does that mean he can make no comment on American political affairs or public morality, either in general or particular? Why does he have to "temper his comments about what a Good Christian is"? If it's not the Pope's job to try to persuade people to do good and avoid evil, then what, exactly, is the Pope's job?



To my knowledge the US Government has never tried to influence the College of Cardinals in the selection of a pope (however, pulpit politics have always had their voice in our political structure).


To your knowledge, has the College of Cardinals ever tried to influence the U.S. electorate in the selection of a president?

Look: If the Pope had said that people should not vote for Donald Trump, or that Donald Trump was evil, then there would be some merit to your argument. But the Pope said nothing of the sort.



As for "my vile" comments of pedophile priest (yes they might be vile and ugly) but they happen to be true and a part of history.......Check with the newspapers (Boston Globe) of the scandals of Boston and the Church. Remember, Archbishop Bernard Law stepped down from his position because of it.


Nowhere did I deny that the priestly abuse scandal was a tragic and criminal reality. But you took that fact and extended it universally. And that, Liz, is the textbook example of a stereotype. And that's what makes your comment vile.

It's "true and part of history" that some Blacks are criminals, some Mexicans are lazy, some Jews are avaricious, some gay men are predators, etc., etc. Do you think it is equally permissible to extend those "true facts" to all Blacks, all Mexicans, all Jews, all gay men, etc.?





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