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joan1984 · 282596

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Offline joan1984

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Reply #1640 on: March 04, 2017, 10:02:48 PM
How quickly some forget.

“We are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America.” So declared Barack Obama in Columbia, Missouri on October 30, 2008, on the cusp of his historic presidential election.

Go look it up, if you simply "do not recall", as Obama's hand picked successor might say, and of course that plan did not work out well, did it?


  I believe it was Barack Hussein Obama who sought, and near achieved, the Transformation of America... that is the "government" that needs unearthing of any who wish to continue "transforming", and get some Americans in there to assure we Make America Great Again.

Oh, how did he do this?  As I see it, Obama mostly helped us gain our respect back, after Bush's warmongering and bullying ways.  Our allies were not happy with Bush, but were happy with Obama.

And no, I am not referring to the sequester.  Specifically you were cheering for Trump because he would destroy the Republican party and open the way to remaking it in a way you would prefer.  You also said something along the lines of remaking the country the same way.

Some people are like the 'slinky'. Not really good for much,
but they bring a smile to your face as they fall down stairs.


Offline Northwest

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Reply #1641 on: March 04, 2017, 10:21:07 PM
That sound like something Obama might say. It also sounds like pretty standard campaign rhetoric. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that he said it.

So what?

I can't make heads nor tales of your rambling here. You seem to be hinting at various nefarious things without actually saying anything which makes sense. Who knows; I might agree with you this time. But first I'd have to be able to understand you.



Offline Lois

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Reply #1642 on: March 04, 2017, 10:49:16 PM
I agree with you NorthWest.  I especially agree that Joan always seems to be hinting about nefarious conspiracies as if everyone knows what she is referring to when they don't.  It makes her sound looney.

So knock it off, will you Joan?  Rather than hint about things please explain.



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Reply #1643 on: March 05, 2017, 12:24:52 AM
Trump libeled Pres. Obama today, saying he had Trump Tower wire tapped. He said his without presenting evidence.

Then he called him bad or sick.

Wow, two for two, libel and defamation of character.

What are the odds that a libel suit was contemplated?

There are three kinds of people in the world. Those who can count, and those who can't.


Offline Lois

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Reply #1644 on: March 05, 2017, 12:37:30 AM
I would demand to see the evidence.

Also, Obama does not do wiretapping.  Possibly the FBI did as part of their investigation of Trump and his Russian connections.



Offline Northwest

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Reply #1645 on: March 05, 2017, 12:51:24 AM
We're all just going to have to learn to have the discipline NOT to chase every rabbit that Trump tosses down. I mean...we even play into his game when we get outraged by his behavior.

The trick is to figure out exactly what it is that he's trying to distract us from -- and then to focus on that like a laser.

So...the insults to Obama don't matter -- he can take it. What's Trump trying to distract us from by doing that? Once again...the answer, I think, lies in Russia.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2017, 12:59:27 AM by Northwest »



Offline Athos_131

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Reply #1646 on: March 05, 2017, 12:56:09 AM
I'd have to imagine President Obama couldn't care less about anything Trump says about him given the current administration is a tire fire.

#Resist
« Last Edit: March 05, 2017, 12:59:41 AM by Athos_131 »

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Offline Northwest

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Offline Athos_131

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Reply #1648 on: March 05, 2017, 01:13:58 AM
I agree, Athos.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/322367-david-axelrod-trump-kicking-up-dust-only-adds-to-suspicions-of

Trump, Offering No Evidence, Says Obama Tapped His Phones

Quote
Without offering any evidence or providing the source of his information, Mr. Trump fired off a series of Twitter messages claiming that Mr. Obama “had my ‘wires tapped.’ ” He likened the supposed tapping to “Nixon/Watergate” and “McCarthyism.”

Quote
It would have been difficult for federal agents, working within the law, to obtain a wiretap order to target Mr. Trump’s phone conversations. It would have meant that the Justice Department had gathered sufficient evidence to persuade a federal judge that there was probable cause to believe he had committed a serious crime or was an agent of a foreign power, depending on whether it was a criminal investigation or a foreign intelligence one.

Former officials pointed to longstanding laws and procedures intended to ensure that presidents cannot wiretap a rival for political purposes.

#Resist
« Last Edit: March 05, 2017, 01:16:00 AM by Athos_131 »

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#BanTheNaziFromKB


Offline Athos_131

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Reply #1649 on: March 05, 2017, 01:35:55 AM




#Resist

#BlackLivesMatter
Arrest The Cops Who Killed Breonna Taylor

#BanTheNaziFromKB


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Reply #1650 on: March 05, 2017, 10:07:51 AM
So where is this latest Trump stupidity coming from?  There's a pattern.  Right wing media like Breithate makes outlandish claims.  Trump reads and repeats it on Twitter.  Bannon's got himself a trick pony!

But one thing seems to be clear, all this foolishness seems calculated to distract from Russia's possible interference in the US election.

Fact check: what did Trump's tweets about Obama's 'wiretaps' mean?
Trump accuses former president of illegal wiretapping – claims that appear to be based on rumors circulating in rightwing media about a ‘silent coup’

On Saturday morning, without presenting evidence, Donald Trump accused former president Barack Obama of illegal wiretapping. Using Twitter, the president also mounted a defense of his attorney general, Jeff Sessions, and his meetings with the Russian ambassador.

The six tweets appeared to originate with rumors circulating in rightwing media, especially talk radio and Breitbart News – recently run by Steve Bannon, now the president’s chief strategist – about a “silent coup” against Trump, by members of the Obama administration.

TWEET #1
Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump
The first meeting Jeff Sessions had with the Russian Amb was set up by the Obama Administration under education program for 100 Ambs......
4:26 AM - 4 Mar 2017


Sessions met Russian ambassador Sergey Kislyak in July 2016, at an event on the sidelines of the Republican National Convention in Cleveland. The event was co-hosted by the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank, and Global Cleveland, in coordination with the RNC and the Department of State.

The state department has invited ambassadors to both party conventions for decades, as an educational program. Several dozen ambassadors from around the world attended the Republican convention this year, according to the Cleveland Plain Dealer.

According to a justice department official speaking anonymously to the Washington Post when it first reported the story, the meeting was casual: Kislyak and other ambassadors approached Sessions after he finished giving a speech. Sessions then spoke with Kislyak alone, the official said, citing a former staffer for the senator. To say the meeting was “set up by the Obama administration” is false.

Nor was the second meeting, held on 8 September in Sessions’ office, arranged by the state department. Justice department officials have said Sessions met Kislyak given the senator’s role on the armed services committee, but 20 of 26 members of that panel have said they did not meet with the ambassador in 2016.

Where did the claim come from? On Friday, Breitbart News published an article claiming that the state department “sponsored” the July meeting.

Tweet #2
Donald J. Trump  @realDonaldTrump
Terrible! Just found out that Obama had my "wires tapped" in Trump Tower just before the victory. Nothing found. This is McCarthyism!
4:35 AM - 4 Mar 2017


Presidents cannot legally order a wire tap operation unilaterally: federal agents and attorneys would have had to convince a federal judge either of probable cause of a serious crime or that the target of the tap was the agent of a foreign power.

However, the former British MP Louise Mensch reported in November that the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (Fisa) court had granted the FBI a surveillance warrant of “US persons” to investigate possible contacts between Russian banks and Trump’s associates. In January, the BBC reported that the Fisa court had issued its warrant in October.

Also in January, the Guardian reported that the Fisa court had turned down an initial request for a warrant, and that the judge had asked investigators to narrow the terms of their search.

On Saturday, Obama denied through a spokesman that he or the White House had any role ordering a wire tap.

“A cardinal rule of the Obama administration was that no White House official ever interfered with an independent investigation led by the Department of Justice,” said spokesman Kevin Lewis. “As part of that practice neither President Obama nor any White House official ever ordered surveillance on any US citizen. Any suggestion otherwise is simply false.”

The spokesperson did not deny that intelligence officials had requested or employed surveillance of Trump associates.

Though leaks from the intelligence community have shown that Trump associates, including former campaign chief Paul Manafort, former adviser Carter Page and former national security adviser Michael Flynn, are included in an investigation into Kremlin activities, it remains unclear what direct evidence of wrongdoing, if any, the agencies have gathered.

It is not unusual for high-level campaign officials to meet ambassadors, but those meetings are typically with representatives of US allies, like Britain and France, and not with those of rivals such as Russia. So far, denials have proven more damning to Trump officials than the content of their conversations: Flynn was caught having misled the vice-president about his contacts with Kislyak and Sessions testified under oath that he “did not have communications with the Russians” during the campaign.

Tweet #3
Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump
Just out: The same Russian Ambassador that met Jeff Sessions visited the Obama White House 22 times, and 4 times last year alone.


Only ambassadors from nations with the most acrimonious relations with the US – or no relations at all – do not visit the White House. Even the cold war did not deter Russian ambassadors from visiting it; Cuba sent its first ambassador in decades in 2015.

This information is not “just out” – over its eight years the Obama White House reported most of its visitors to the public, a practice so far discontinued by the Trump White House. On Friday, Breitbart reported that Kislyak visited the White House 22 times in seven years, citing a Dally Caller story that used the old logs.

Tweet #4
Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump
Is it legal for a sitting President to be "wire tapping" a race for president prior to an election? Turned down by court earlier. A NEW LOW!
4:49 AM - 4 Mar 2017


It would not be legal for a sitting president to unilaterally order surveillance; a federal court would have to approve the surveillance. Trump seems to acknowledge this in an oblique way, with an allusion to the report that the Fisa court at first turned down an initial request for a warrant.

Though Trump claimed he “just found out” about reported surveillance, he is privy to intelligence briefings in which officials would have informed him about such operations. Both Obama and Trump received these briefings during the transition, for instance, reportedly, about an unsubstantiated dossier regarding links between Trump’s campaign and Russian officials.

Tweet #5
Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump
I'd bet a good lawyer could make a great case out of the fact that President Obama was tapping my phones in October, just prior to Election!
4:52 AM - 4 Mar 2017


Trump presents baseless rumor as fact here, saying Obama “was tapping my phones in October” without providing any evidence of the former president’s agency in the investigation or of the surveillance itself. The Obama administration did not formally accuse Russia of interfering in the election until early October 2016.

Tweet #6
Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump
How low has President Obama gone to tapp my phones during the very sacred election process. This is Nixon/Watergate. Bad (or sick) guy!
5:02 AM - 4 Mar 2017


Again, Trump presents a claim without evidence, this time as condemnation. As he earlier compared the overall Russia investigation to “McCarthyism” – the 1950s anti-communist crusade by Senator Joe McCarthy, who often resorted to baseless claims – Trump now invokes the Watergate scandal, in which President Richard Nixon’s White House spied on his political opponents.

Unlike that scandal, however, which involved illegal break-ins, intimidation and surveillance by people with links to the White House, the current investigations are being handled by federal courts and intelligence agencies that fall under the authority of the attorney general. On Thursday, Sessions recused himself.



Offline Northwest

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Reply #1651 on: March 05, 2017, 02:17:08 PM
Quote
Lois said: "But one thing seems to be clear, all this foolishness seems calculated to distract from Russia's possible interference in the US election."

Exactly, Lois. But, unfortunately for Trump, he's finding that he's not able to simply bluster his way through controversies like he could during the campaign. It looks like Trump may finally have found that the presidency comes with a spotlight which illuminates more than he can handle.



Offline Northwest

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Reply #1652 on: March 05, 2017, 03:00:33 PM
This is well worth the time to read. Learn where Trump developed that pit bull demeanor, and why the charge of McCarthyism comes readily to mind:

‘He Brutalized For You’

How Joseph McCarthy henchman Roy Cohn became Donald Trump’s mentor

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/04/donald-trump-roy-cohn-mentor-joseph-mccarthy-213799




Offline Athos_131

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Reply #1653 on: March 05, 2017, 03:09:15 PM
Russia is the slow burn of the Trump administration, and it’s not going away

Quote
As much as Trump would like to wish all this away, he can’t. The reality is that the investigations are at an early stage. Congress hasn’t even begun to call witnesses. The prospect of a special prosecutor looms.

#Resist

#BlackLivesMatter
Arrest The Cops Who Killed Breonna Taylor

#BanTheNaziFromKB


Offline Northwest

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Reply #1654 on: March 05, 2017, 03:13:50 PM
The SNL team is having its best season in years:




Offline Athos_131

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Reply #1655 on: March 05, 2017, 03:15:38 PM

#BlackLivesMatter
Arrest The Cops Who Killed Breonna Taylor

#BanTheNaziFromKB


Offline Northwest

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Offline Northwest

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Reply #1657 on: March 05, 2017, 04:38:29 PM
It looks like Trump is trying to escape his difficulties by climbing further out on the limb he's hanging on. I don't think it's going to work for him.

Trump has yet to really realize how substantially the arena he now inhabits differs from what he's used to. Everything he does is scrutinized and commented upon by the best and brightest minds around; tricks which worked for him in his past life just don't cut it on the stage upon which he now struts.

He's already over used the "Blame Obama" ploy. He's already established a strikingly clear pattern of distraction to avoid addressing the legitimate concerns over his Russia connections. These tricks aren't working for him, and he's running out of rabbits and hats.

Trump wants congressional probe, won't comment on claims until it's done



http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/03/05/donald-trump-barack-obama/98774014/



Offline Katiebee

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Reply #1658 on: March 05, 2017, 06:55:28 PM
He is now calling for a congressional investigation. All Trmpnhas tondonis ask the FBI, the NSA, etc. if he doesn't have any proof other than the crap Britebart is spewing, then he is proving just how unfit he is to be POTUS.

Isn't mental incapacity supposed to be grounds for removal? Sounds to me like that is a possibility now.

There are three kinds of people in the world. Those who can count, and those who can't.


Offline Northwest

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Reply #1659 on: March 05, 2017, 09:39:06 PM
Did Trump just reveal the shape of what he's trying to keep hidden about his relationship with the Russian government? Has he begun a denial campaign in an attempt at damage control on a story which hasn't even been released yet? If it turns out that Russia was illegally funding Trump's campaign, could he possibly survive it?

We'll have to wait and see. But this might explain the relative insanity of making ridiculous charges, sans evidence, against a popular and highly respected former president. Perhaps this is simply the best that Trump can do because he has a good idea what's coming down the road at him.

Is it time to start thinking about what life would be like under President Pence?


Trump’s ‘evidence’ for Obama wiretap claims relies on sketchy, anonymously sourced reports
By Glenn Kessler March 5 at 11:24 AM



Quote
“How low has President Obama gone to tapp [sic] my phones during the very sacred election process. This is Nixon/Watergate. Bad (or sick) guy!”
— President Trump, tweet, March 4, 2017

Quote
“Reports concerning potentially politically motivated investigations ahead of the 2016 election are very troubling.”
— White House press secretary Sean Spicer, statement, March 5

President Trump’s explosive allegation that former president Barack Obama wiretapped him is based on — what?

That has been the question ever since Trump sent provocative early-morning tweets over the weekend, because he and his staff have provided no evidence.

At The Fact Checker, we require the accuser to provide the evidence for a dramatic claim. We asked Saturday and received no answer.

However, in calling for a congressional investigation of apparent Russian meddling in the election to also look into Trump’s allegation, White House press secretary Sean Spicer on Sunday referred to “reports concerning potentially politically motivated investigations.” That suggests that the tweets were based on media reports, not information that the president might have received from inside the government.

Our colleague Robert Costa has reported that White House aides have internally circulated an article on Breitbart titled “Mark Levin to Congress: Investigate Obama’s ‘Silent Coup’ vs. Trump.” Breitbart is a right-leaning news organization that is a rather unreliable source of information. Often the material that is published is derivative and twisted in misleading ways.

However, a White House spokesman told The Fact Checker that the White House instead is relying on reports “from BBC, Heat Street, New York Times, Fox News, among others.” He provided a list of five articles.

Let’s explore the sources of the president’s claim.

The Facts

We are going to start with the Breitbart article, which lists two key data points that appear to relate to the president’s claim:

    June 2016: FISA [Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act] request. The Obama administration files a request with the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISA) to monitor communications involving Donald Trump and several advisers. The request, uncharacteristically, is denied.

    October: FISA request. The Obama administration submits a new, narrow request to the FISA court, now focused on a computer server in Trump Tower suspected of links to Russian banks. No evidence is found — but the wiretaps continue, ostensibly for national security reasons, Andrew McCarthy at National Review later notes. The Obama administration is now monitoring an opposing presidential campaign using the high-tech surveillance powers of the federal intelligence services.

But these data points are not based on reporting by Breitbart. Instead, Breitbart links to a report that appeared in Heat Street, another right-leaning news organization: “EXCLUSIVE: FBI ‘Granted FISA Warrant’ Covering Trump Camp’s Ties To Russia.” It was written by Louise Mensch, a former Tory member of the British Parliament and an independent journalist. This is one of the news reports identified by the White House, and it’s the most important one.

This article claimed: “Two separate sources with links to the counter-intelligence community have confirmed to Heat Street that the FBI sought, and was granted, a FISA court warrant in October, giving counter-intelligence permission to examine the activities of ‘U.S. persons’ in Donald Trump’s campaign with ties to Russia.”

Mensch claimed that the warrant was related to an FBI investigation of a possible secret channel of email communication from the Trump Organization to two Russian banks — an investigation that, as far as anyone knows, went nowhere.

“The FISA warrant was granted in connection with the investigation of suspected activity between the server [in Trump Tower] and two banks, SVB Bank and Alfa Bank. However, it is thought in the intelligence community that the warrant covers any ‘US person’ connected to this investigation, and thus covers Donald Trump and at least three further men who have either formed part of his campaign or acted as his media surrogates,” Mensch wrote.

(Note: While Heat Street says the server in question is in Trump Tower, other reports have suggested the server actually was located in Philadelphia. That’s because the Trump domain was controlled by a company that outsourced emails to another company called Listrak, which actually owns/operates the physical server in a data center in Philadelphia.)

The Washington Post for months has sought to confirm this report of a FISA warrant related to the Trump campaign but has been unable to do so. Presumably, other major news organizations have tried to do so as well. So one has to take this claim with a huge dose of skepticism. Indeed, the New York Times reported before the election that the FBI “ultimately concluded that there could be an innocuous explanation, like a marketing email or spam, for the computer contacts” with the Russian banks.

Interestingly, as far as we can tell, only two other reports have touched on this FISA claim, and they also have British connections. One is a report in the BBC from January, which the White House cited as a source. The BBC reported:

   Lawyers from the National Security Division in the Department of Justice then drew up an application. They took it to the secret US court that deals with intelligence, the FISA court, named after the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. They wanted permission to intercept the electronic records from two Russian banks.

    Their first application, in June, was rejected outright by the judge. They returned with a more narrowly drawn order in July and were rejected again. Finally, before a new judge, the order was granted, on 15 October, three weeks before election day.

    Neither Mr Trump nor his associates are named in the FISA order, which would only cover foreign citizens or foreign entities — in this case the Russian banks. But ultimately, the investigation is looking for transfers of money from Russia to the United States, each one, if proved, a felony offense.

    A lawyer — outside the Department of Justice but familiar with the case — told me that three of Mr Trump’s associates were the subject of the inquiry. “But it’s clear this is about Trump,” he said.


Finally, there was a report in the Guardian, which reported on the supposed June FISA request but could not confirm the October one. (The White House did not cite the Guardian.)

    The Guardian has learned that the FBI applied for a warrant from the foreign intelligence surveillance (FISA) court over the summer in order to monitor four members of the Trump team suspected of irregular contacts with Russian officials. The FISA court turned down the application asking FBI counter-intelligence investigators to narrow its focus. According to one report, the FBI was finally granted a warrant in October, but that has not been confirmed, and it is not clear whether any warrant led to a full investigation.

Separately, McClatchy, in a January article that mostly focused on whether money from the Kremlin covertly aided Trump’s campaign, reported that one source had confirmed that “the FBI had obtained a warrant on Oct. 15 from the highly secretive Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court allowing investigators access to bank records and other documents about potential payments and money transfers related to Russia.” This echoed the BBC report, but is much different than the Heat Street account. (The White House did not mention this report as a source for Trump’s claim.)

The White House provided three other sources. Two, a National Review article and a Fox News interview, are simply derivative of the Heat Street article, with no independent confirmation. The third is a New York Times report that intelligence agencies “are examining intercepted communications and financial transactions” as part of a probe of possible links between Russian officials and Trump campaign aides. (We recall that the president has previously deemed Times reporting on this matter as “fake news.”)

So what do we have here?

Only two articles, both with British roots, have reported that a FISA court order was granted in October to examine possible activity between two Russian banks and a computer server in the Trump Tower. This claim has not been confirmed by U.S. news organizations. Moreover, neither article says that Obama requested the order or that it resulted in the tapping of Trump’s phone lines. The server, in fact, may not have even been in Trump Tower.

(Our colleague Ellen Nakashima reported how difficult it is to obtain a wiretap of a U.S. citizen as part of a foreign intelligence investigation.)

Moreover, the articles do not support the White House’s claim that these were “potentially politically motivated investigations” led by Obama. The articles all suggest that the FISA requests — if they happened — were done by the intelligence agencies and the FBI. The BBC says the investigation was prompted by a tip from a Baltic country about possible criminal activity:

   Last April, the CIA director was shown intelligence that worried him. It was — allegedly — a tape recording of a conversation about money from the Kremlin going into the US presidential campaign.

    It was passed to the US by an intelligence agency of one of the Baltic States. The CIA cannot act domestically against American citizens so a joint counter-intelligence task force was created.


We should also note that a spokesman for Obama has denied the allegation that the former president ordered a wiretap on Trump.

Moreover, James Clapper, the former director of national intelligence under Obama, told NBC’s “Meet the Press” on Sunday that in the national intelligence activity he oversaw, “there was no such wiretap activity mounted against the president, the president-elect at the time, as a candidate or against his campaign.” Clapper said as intelligence director he would have known about a “FISA court order on something like this. Absolutely, I can deny it.”

Asked again whether there was a FISA court order to monitor Trump Tower, Clapper replied: “Not to my knowledge.”

The Pinocchio Test

While the Trump White House cited five news reports to justify its request for a congressional investigation, only two actually are relevant.

It’s certainly ironic that the Trump White House — which has heavily criticized articles relying on anonymous sources — now relies on articles based on anonymous sources that cite information that has not been confirmed by any U.S. news organization. It would be amusing if it were not so sad.

After all, Clapper, who presumably would be aware of a FISA court order, has issued an on-the-record denial.

Even if these media reports are accepted as accurate, neither back up Trump’s claims that Obama ordered the tapping of his phone calls. Moreover, they also do not back up the administration’s revised claim of politically motivated investigations.

We’re still waiting for the evidence. In the meantime, Trump earns Four Pinocchios.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/03/05/trumps-evidence-for-obama-wiretap-claims-relies-on-sketchy-anonymously-sourced-reports/
« Last Edit: March 05, 2017, 10:06:00 PM by Northwest »