Does God exist?

[JulesVern]

Some people are just hard wired to believe in a higher power.  It's not a mental weakness, I suppose.  It only becomes a problem when they try to impose their fantasies on the rest of us.

Personally I do believe that believing in a higher power is a form of mental weakness, especially if you go around saying things like, 'well, it will happen if it's god's will.' Basically you are removing yourself from responsibility over your actions, or lack thereof.

As for the second sentence, in my opinion, it becomes an ever bigger problem at that point.

[JulesVern]

I'm not in any hurry to find out.

;

I would agree with this sentiment except that I don't believe we ever will, especially when we die. :-p

[psiberzerker]

I don't believe...

And yet,

Personally I do believe that believing in a higher power is a form of mental weakness

Belief is part of our mental security.  You do believe what you want to, in this case it supports your intellectual superiority.  By pointing out the mental weakness in others, it Asserts your (Alleged) mental Power over them by contrast.

You don't believe in a higher power, because that would make you inferior to someone.

Faith, cuts both ways.  "I don't know."  ~Socrates.

(In Greek, literally "A Gnosti.")  Anyone who claims to is lying to themselves.  You can search the universe to heat-death, not find anything that lives up to your personal standards, and still not prove the non-existence of anything.

You still believe.  It's the same instinct as those who trust in a power outside themselves as you who internalize it.

In order to ponder the great FAQs of the ages, the first thing you have to accept is you don't already know all the answers.  Like my original response, it implied that I don't know.

Therefore, I can wait to find out.

[JulesVern]

I don't believe...

And yet,

Personally I do believe that believing in a higher power is a form of mental weakness

Belief is part of our mental security.  You do believe what you want to, in this case it supports your intellectual superiority.  By pointing out the mental weakness in others, it Asserts your (Alleged) mental Power over them by contrast.

You don't believe in a higher power, because that would make you inferior to someone.

Faith, cuts both ways.  "I don't know."  ~Socrates.

(In Greek, literally "A Gnosti.")  Anyone who claims to is lying to themselves.  You can search the universe to heat-death, not find anything that lives up to your personal standards, and still not prove the non-existence of anything.

You still believe.  It's the same instinct as those who trust in a power outside themselves as you who internalize it.

In order to ponder the great FAQs of the ages, the first thing you have to accept is you don't already know all the answers.  Like my original response, it implied that I don't know.

Therefore, I can wait to find out.

Of course you can't prove the non-existence of anything, but that in no way proves something does exist. Neither does it mean that somewhere deep inside I do actually believe in some higher power as you say. I do not. Not even a little bit. I will neither agree or disagree that it is because I don't want to feel inferior to that higher power. That is honestly something I have never really thought about. As for feeling superior to others, that is absolutely true at times. I have no doubt that we all have those feelings when we run into people who do stupid, foolish, criminal, and all too many other types of odd things (for lack of a better descriptor). But then again, there are definitely times I feel foolish and/or stupid myself. :-p

As for finding out, as I said, that's not gonna happen.

[psiberzerker]

Of course you can't prove the non-existence of anything, but that in no way proves something does exist. Neither does it mean that somewhere deep inside I do actually believe in some higher power as you say.

Exactly my point.  I don't know, you don't know, and anyone who's convinced that they do have given into some sort of Assumption from lack of evidence.  There is no evidence, therefore there can be no conclusion extrapolated from it.

I will neither agree or disagree that it is because I don't want to feel inferior to that higher power. That is honestly something I have never really thought about. As for feeling superior to others, that is absolutely true at times.

Okay, not absolutely at all times.  I'm sure there are true messianic delusionals for which that is true, most of the time (Possibly in the Oval Office) but this is a natural inclination of our fallible minds.  Science, philosophy, and intellectualism is the attempt to understand better.  Rationally, science through analyzing evidence, and peer review, philosophy through pondering, and intellectualism by one-upping each other over craft-brews, but there is also the equal, and opposite myth of the completely rational person.  Absolutely, all the time.

That's an impossible standard, right up there with knowing the Will of God.  We're human.  We're tempted by things like feeling superior, or spiritual enlightenment.  Only through discipline do we learn to resist these fallacies, but not completely become immune to them.  The truth is, we're all human, and nobody is completely superior, all the time.  No matter how much we want to be.

I have no doubt that we all have those feelings when we run into people who do stupid, foolish, criminal, and all too many other types of odd things (for lack of a better descriptor). But then again, there are definitely times I feel foolish and/or stupid myself.

Right, then we go an do something brilliant, it tends to balance out.  However, being intelligent isn't a full time job.  Sometimes, we just want to hang up the labcoats, and talk about comic books, or something.  Have a beer, smoke a joint, or get layed.  Give the neurons a break, because honestly, being the smartest one in the room, or the strongest, richest, 24/7 is fucking exhausting.

As for finding out, as I said, that's not gonna happen.

We'll see.    I've never been there, if you contend there is nothing after death, then where's your evidence?

For the record, I wasn't calling you a narcissist.  I was pointing out that that's narcissistic ideation:  Intellectual Superiority.  It takes a lot of faith to maintain that belief.  Honestly, you can't do all the time, and stay sane indefinitely.

[_priapism]

Questions?

[Lois]

A young Christian acolyte once told me that proof that god exists was evidenced by the A.D./B.C used for denoting years. 

I told her that the days of the week and even months of the year were mostly named for pagan deities.  Does that mean they exist, too?

She had nothing much to say after that.

[JulesVern]

Of course you can't prove the non-existence of anything, but that in no way proves something does exist. Neither does it mean that somewhere deep inside I do actually believe in some higher power as you say.

Exactly my point.  I don't know, you don't know, and anyone who's convinced that they do have given into some sort of Assumption from lack of evidence.  There is no evidence, therefore there can be no conclusion extrapolated from it.

I guess I should have extrapolated that somewhat. No, you can't generally prove the non-existence something, though I would argue there are obviously circumstances where you can, but the lack of any actual proof that something does exist is in and of itself partial evidence that it does not.

So, since no one has ever provided any actual, verifiable evidence of a higher being, I don't believe there is any thing.

[psiberzerker]

the lack of any actual proof that something does exist is in and of itself partial evidence that it does not.

No, that's reverse extrapolation.  Lack of evidence is proof that we should keep looking, not proof of anything else.  

I mentioned earlier your personal standards.  This is something the Nihilists (Who believe that being a nihilist has any meaning) don't get to either, only in the opposite direction.

Any higher power.  Not just the catholic interpretation of the post-christian Abrahambric myth of YHVH.

Yes, we can say with some certainty that ^that isn't internally consistant enough to exist, in the universe as we understand it.

However, you're making the leap from that to:  Because Allah (In Syriac, it's Allah, in English it got translated to "God") doesn't exist, there is no higher power.

Likewise, because Unicorns don't exist, there are no horses, or mules, in the universe.  Zebras are a hoax, because you've never seen one personally, by the same logic.

I don't know.  There could be some higher power, somewhere out there in this vast universe.  About all I know about it is, if it does exist, it doesn't answer it's calls.

[psiberzerker]

Now, let's stick to AHP instead of "God," because there's so many mythical, and dogmatic assumptions associated with that.  What we believe is immaterial, it's how we act that has consequences.

The important point is "In the Universe."  So, I'm going to resort to Occam's Teacup*.  The simplest explanation is:



*Because it rests in a saucer.

Now, there's basically 3 possibilities here:  Either, we're alone in the universe, we're the most powerful beings in the universe, or there's something out there that can destroy us.

We've been broadcasting "Come to Earth, and we'll kick your ass!" for the past 80+ years.  Long enough for "War of the Worlds" to make it to the Ursa Moving Group, and TRAPPIST-1.

Now, one plausible answer to Fermi's Question is, because we've been broadcasting war propaganda for decades, and everything within 80 light years wants nothing to do with us.  (Or, they just haven't gotten back to us, because lag.)

Now, what if there is a Higher Power?

[JulesVern]

Horses? Unicorns? Whatever. There is no proof unicorns ever existed yet the proof of the existence of horses is irrefutable. I didn't come to my conclusion about the existence of a higher because of the bible.

As for other intelligence in the universe, that I simply don't know. It would seem unlikely that our planet alone has life on it, and where there is life I would imagine 'intelligent' life would evolve. Of course, the some debate if there is actually any intelligent life on earth. :-p

As for aliens, there too we have no evidence and I think about that now and again and wonder about why. Is it because Einstein is right and there is no way to reach the speed of light (or beyond)?

[psiberzerker]

As for aliens, there too we have no evidence and I think about that now and again and wonder about why.

Yeah, that's Fermi's Question.  My point was that they could be a Higher Power.  Not necessarily God, but basically all they'd need is a radio, interstellar travel, and a large enough impacter (Pick one.  We don't even know how many there are in the solar system.) to wipe us out.  Easily.  They wouldn't even have to get close enough for us to shoot back.

For being belligerent. 

[JulesVern]

As for aliens, there too we have no evidence and I think about that now and again and wonder about why.

Yeah, that's Fermi's Question.  My point was that they could be a Higher Power.  Not necessarily God, but basically all they'd need is a radio, interstellar travel, and a large enough impacter (Pick one.  We don't even know how many there are in the solar system.) to wipe us out.  Easily.  They wouldn't even have to get close enough for us to shoot back.

For being belligerent. 

Yes it is. As for higher powers, in that context, yes, there could definitely be more advanced beings out there in the universe, but I do not, and would not, characterize them as a 'higher power'. And they would not necessarily be friendly. :-p

[psiberzerker]

I do not, and would not, characterize them as a 'higher power'. And they would not necessarily be friendly.

Right, which is why I specified your personal standards, twice.  To be clear.  If you define what is acceptable as the definitive "Higher Power" to eliminate it from the discussion, or existence, then it's an easy win.  A cop-out.

Of course your higher power doesn't exist, because you define it as not-existing.  The ability wipe us out, end our existence, not withstanding.

In my book, (Science fiction writer here) that's a possibility worth considering.  Seeng as we continue broadcasting War Propaganda against the Universe.

[Katiebee]

Let me, once more, boil it down to the essence of the conundrum.

The only proof anyone can obtain is at the time of your own death.

The question is moot. If there is a God, our belief or disbelief has no effect. If there is no God, then it doesn’t really matter.

[psiberzerker]

The question is moot. If there is a God, our belief or disbelief has no effect.

Right, but it's interesting, and fun to talk about.  You know, fun?  You should try it some time.

[JulesVern]

In my mind, when someone says god, or higher power, or supreme being, or whatever in a similar vein, they are talking about a being that they believe is our creator. I suppose that is the word I should be using for clarity. I don't believe in a 'creator', in a being that created the universe and/or Earth and the life on Earth. As for a higher power, as I have already said, I do believe that more advanced beings may well exist out there somewhere, just as less advanced beings/life may exist. Of course, that wasn't where this discussion started for me, but whatever...

[jimmytin]

This sums it up

[psiberzerker]

In my mind, when someone says god, or higher power, or supreme being, or whatever in a similar vein, they are talking about

It doesn't matter what you assume everyone else means.  It matters what they actually mean.  Even if you redefine everyone's God as the creator, you still have to prove that we were created without a god, for which you have no evidence.

None.  Again, no evidence means you keep Looking, not tell people what other people are talking about, in your mind, to prove your point.  What people are talking about, in your mind, is not evidence, it's a delusion.

[JulesVern]

This sums it up

Finally got around to watching this and all I can say, is that was totally awesome!!! And so true. :-)