Does God exist?

[MissBarbara]

So... let me try to wrap my head around this -

You're arguing that God orders his faithful to bludgeon people to death, and he DOESN'T hate them? Wow, your god interpretation is even more sociopathic then mine. Ouch.

I'm arguing nothing of the sort, nor have I argued anything of the sort.

You sure about that? I perhaps read this wrong then:

However, none of this says (or means) that "God hates fags (or dykes)."

That was yours. Clarify?

I've explained this twice already but, what the hell, I'll try again.

You insist on anthropomorphizing God, viewing him strictly through applied human traits. If view him as God (if only for the sake of discussion) and assume his omnipotence, omniscience, his pure being ("I am who am"), and his eternal love, then it's impossible for God to hate anything, or anyone.

To directly address your point, roll out the old saw: "Hate the sin, love the sinner." In other words -- and this was your initial assertion, "God hates fags" -- God does not hate someone who violates his law, God still loves them, and forgives them, over and over. To put it prosaically, God loves fags. And dykes. And even straight people!

What I'm arguing is that God "created" humans with free will.

All parents has a child that consciously disobeys them, and does things that they know they shouldn't do, but they do it anyway.

Do those parents then hate their child? And if they don't hate their child for that, then would you similarly label those parents "sociopathic"?

Alexander Pope was correct: "To err is human, to forgive divine." Ponder that.
[/b]

I would label the parents as sociopathic if they ordered their other children to beat them to death. Yup, that would indeed be sociopathic.

Again, your spectacularly missing the point. And anthropomorphizing God. And reading the Bible strictly literally.

And, again, I'm simply replying to your assertion that "God hates fags." As I just noted above, your asserting that anyone who violates a rule or law is per se hated by the person who established that rule or law. I'm saying that that's simply not true, neither in the overall theme of the Bible, nor in real life.

As such, I think my parenting analogy is even more germane. Since you insist on viewing God in exclusively human terms, well, there's a human comparison.

Do you understand the concept of free will? God's omnipotence and omniscience and humans' fallibility have nothing to do with each other.

How on earth could they have anything less than everything to do with each other? He created Satan without free will - and he knew what would happen. He created humans with free will, but is it really free will if one is doomed to hell? God supposedly knows who is going to hell, and he is responsible for their creation. Hence, our fallibility is entirely a product of his omnipotence.

But you're right: "He created us knowing exactly what we would do." He knew that we would use our free will to obey him or not, worship him or not, follow his commands or not, love him or not, recognize his existence or not.
[/b]

Yeah, we're on the same page there. How free is that? We're free to do exactly as programmed.

No, we're certainly not on the same page, since you clearly do not understand the concept of free will. To piggyback on your computer analogy, we are free to do exactly the opposite of how we're programmed, and free to do something other than how we're programmed.

And that's the whole point. If humans did not have free will, then all religion, including God himself, would be absurd.

Nor have I argued about modern interpretation of the Bible. That's an area that, frankly, I know fairly little about.

I am arguing that taking a book literally that was never intended to be taken literally is entirely missing the point.

Never? It was never intended to be taken literally? So god was just joking about beating gay men to death? Not a single one of his followers ever did that? Nobody was expected to take that literally? God sure has an odd sense of humor, because I'm certain a lot of misguided followers didn't get the joke.

I'm far from a Biblical scholar, but I don't recall any passages in the Bible where God orders his followers to beat gay men to death. 

But you labelled them "misguided," thus proving my point.

I would agree -- hypothetically -- that reading the Bible with strict literalism, devoid of any context, refusing to discover any deeper meanings of general themes would reveal a God who is a sociopath. And therein lies the problem.

I think we just see the theme differently - I don't brush aside the orders of the main character as irrelevant or sarcastic, and you see some reason that this doesn't matter. Many Christians like to disregard some of the more despicable points in the bible, especially the ot. You are not alone, I just disagree.

Please show me where I said these things don't matter? Or where I disregarded the more despicable (your word, based, again, on a strictly literal reading) parts of the Bible?

That's a straw (wo)man argument. Please respond to what I say, and not what you think I think.

And Dante (the character) didn't really enter the gates of hell, meet Virgil, and make his way downward, meeting scores of persons, real life or fictional (including many whom Dante, the writer, had personal beefs with).

Dante wrote a work of fiction, and did not try to convince anyone otherwise.

"
God's hates dykes" is your interpretation, not mine.

But I'll pray for you when I'm attending Mass on Sunday.

Deal - I'l volunteer to help the mentally ill homeless in my area get medication and housing, and you pray. I'll feed the homeless, and you just go ahead and light a candle. I'll donate clothes and tutor the children of the homeless in my neighborhood, and you talk to a priest. I'll pick up trash including used hypodermic needles, and you go to confession for your 'sins' and tithe.

I suspect you do many acts of charity, as do many other Christians, but you also spend a lot of time - and perhaps money - on the proliferation of a collection of lies.

Okay, now you're simply being a pompous asshole. And a total dick.

Though that's your right, of course.

I find it very sad that you're unable to have a civil discussion without resorting to name-calling and personal attacks.

Though that, too, is your right.

[Fish]

That is exactly the way I feel when someone says they will pray for me.

I would rather be raped half to death by a whole bunch of angry AIDS gorillas than have the forgiveness of your god.

I mean this with precisely the same sentiment you had when you said you would pray for me: go to hell. I consider you a friend, and I think you'd be happier there.

[Fish]

I'm afraid that was lost in translation.

[Piper-Dreams]

That is exactly the way I feel when someone says they will pray for me.

I would rather be raped half to death by a whole bunch of angry AIDS gorillas than have the forgiveness of your god.

I mean this with precisely the same sentiment you had when you said you would pray for me: go to hell. I consider you a friend, and I think you'd be happier there.

Mind you don't cut yourself on that edge.

[Fish]

Still lost

[Piper-Dreams]

Still lost

*Pats Fish on the head*

[Fish]

Possible interpretations I find:

1. Water helps rashes.
2. Water helps a friend's oddly sized and shaped sunburn...?
3. This person got his/her wrist slapped really badly, and a friend poured ice-water over the wrist to be helpful.

If that was supposed to clarify anything, I don't understand how. Perhaps I don't know what's in the bottle (no label)? Perhaps I don't understand the origin of the red mark (bad makeup)? Perhaps a cultural difference (Farmer Miles is from UK, and I'm not sure of your whereabouts Piper) explains this. Or perhaps I'm overlooking something else?

[staci]

Pouring salt on an open wound Fish.

[Fish]

I would like to formally apologize for my recent behavior on this thread.

I reacted emotionally to something I found offensive - something that was absolutely not meant to be offensive - and I insulted someone I greatly admire.

I know this behavior is acceptable here, but just because one is allowed to be a prick, it doesn't mean one must be a prick.

I am done with this conversation - I have my views, and I no longer feel the need to talk about it.

[Lois]

Agreed.  Yes this place is for fights, and yet we can get carried away and show the ugly sides of ourselves.  I have done the same.

I am not sure what the cure is.  Water?  More self reflection.

I am an atheist, yet something MissBarbara said in this thread holds true.  Yes there are those that use religion to justify the most heinous acts, but there are also those for whom their faith inspires great works of charity and love for others.

I was raised Unitarian/Universalist, and MissB's observation brought me back to the core of my beliefs and faith.

[MissBarbara]

I am not sure what the cure is.  Water?  More self reflection.

I've found that bourbon often helps.

Just, you know, sayin'

[watcher1]

Agreed.  Yes this place is for fights, and yet we can get carried away and show the ugly sides of ourselves.  I have done the same.

I am not sure what the cure is.  Water?  More self reflection.

I am an atheist, yet something MissBarbara said in this thread holds true.  Yes there are those that use religion to justify the most heinous acts, but there are also those for whom their faith inspires great works of charity and love for others.

I was raised Unitarian/Universalist, and MissB's observation brought me back to the core of my beliefs and faith.

Well stated, Lois. To me, religion is a personal thing. Pray or commune to whom you believe in and let others do what they wish.  There have been enough killings and persecutions under the name of "God" to sicken even "God".

[Pervertedneighbor]

I have never believed in any god or gods, not those of the savages, nor those written of in books by racist men seeking to separate themselves from savages.  I do not believe in lies, in something I cannot see simply because someone else tells me it exists, even if it was my parents when I was seven years old.  I do not believe in something because someone tried to beat it into me.  I do not believe in things for their convenience or for their community nor do I begrudge other people their beliefs.  I do not believe in something simply because it offers me comfort or hope.

[Katiebee]

Consider this, perhaps you have never been beaten so low, been so far from any hope to grasp at anything that promised you any possible comfort in the only space you could call your own, your own mind.

While I share the disbelief you profess I fully understand how some might believe. The powerless, the slave, the weak and feeble, those who know there is no salvation while they take breath. These are the ines who will believe and hold fast to that belief.

The dogmatic will find their faith shaken when no succor arrives, the life-long believer who is tested and is disappointed wil question or reject their faith.

But the truly hopeless will find comfort in religion because that is the only place they can place hope, not for the present, but for the future in a place not found among the living.

[Supersoftball]

No proof that he does.

[Lois]

The biggest problem is people who take religion literally.  So what if there is no god?  Is there still no meaning in religious works?  There are many works of fiction that nevertheless have good points to make.

[MissBarbara]

The biggest problem is people who take religion literally.  So what if there is no god?  Is there still no meaning in religious works?  There are many works of fiction that nevertheless have good points to make.

Lois, I think that's exactly the point.

[IdleBoast]

The biggest problem is people who take religion literally.  So what if there is no god?  Is there still no meaning in religious works?  There are many works of fiction that nevertheless have good points to make.

One day I'll have to show you my Twitter feed.

Sooo many people taking religious texts way too literally...

[Katiebee]

I never wear polyester, nor do I wear cotton, silk, and wool together.

And during my menstruation, I remain sequestered from all men.

[Elizabeth]

I never wear polyester, nor do I wear cotton, silk, and wool together.

And during my menstruation, I remain sequestered from all men.

LOL.....What's Polyester got to do with Biblical Times...??
That's kinda like getting a Naugahyde  seat cover for your camel....
    

Love,
Liz