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Offline watasch

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Reply #1020 on: December 06, 2016, 06:24:31 PM
An interesting view but contrast and conflict within your statement.

You stated "survival of the fittest" yet imply those societies that are violent and such will not survive in the long term.  The term "survival of the fittest" implies the weak will not survive.  If the weak do not survive to multiply then how does that reconcile with your position?  And then how do they actually multiply if they do not survive?

History has shown the violent tendency of the human race.  In just the 20th century alone we saw the deaths of untold hundreds of millions due to war or war actions (Hitler, Stalin, Tojo, Mao, Pol Pot to name just a few).  Morality is being responsible to a higher authority in how we interact with others.  Society itself has shown its failure to establish moral authority (have you heard the term you can't legislate morality?). 

Also missing in this conversation is the definition of "God".  Most philosophers describe "God" as the "uncaused first cause".  Think of that for a moment.  All events in the universe as we look at it has a "cause".  Something happened for something else to result.  So Freemont, though you profess "gods and goddesses" what "caused" them to exist?  And multiple gods and goddesses, by definition, had to originate somewhere or somehow?  Ancient religions touted their gods resulted from birth or death but tended to relate to some other cause to bring them into existence. 

Now please, for those who read and react to this posting lets continue to think critically what we profess.  True KB is not a religious nor philosophical board (though some would strongly debate the philosophy of porn) but every once in a while a subject does come up that causes a couple of neurons to fire in what is otherwise just an entertainment forum.  I do welcome those thoughts (and politics...just go into a corner and masturbate as the result is usually the same...temporary satisfaction at best!  "GUILTY")   





Offline Freemont

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Reply #1021 on: December 06, 2016, 10:28:43 PM
An interesting view but contrast and conflict within your statement.

You stated "survival of the fittest" yet imply those societies that are violent and such will not survive in the long term.  The term "survival of the fittest" implies the weak will not survive.  If the weak do not survive to multiply then how does that reconcile with your position?  And then how do they actually multiply if they do not survive?

History has shown the violent tendency of the human race.  In just the 20th century alone we saw the deaths of untold hundreds of millions due to war or war actions (Hitler, Stalin, Tojo, Mao, Pol Pot to name just a few).  Morality is being responsible to a higher authority in how we interact with others.  Society itself has shown its failure to establish moral authority (have you heard the term you can't legislate morality?). 

Also missing in this conversation is the definition of "God".  Most philosophers describe "God" as the "uncaused first cause".  Think of that for a moment.  All events in the universe as we look at it has a "cause".  Something happened for something else to result.  So Freemont, though you profess "gods and goddesses" what "caused" them to exist?  And multiple gods and goddesses, by definition, had to originate somewhere or somehow?  Ancient religions touted their gods resulted from birth or death but tended to relate to some other cause to bring them into existence. 

Now please, for those who read and react to this posting lets continue to think critically what we profess.  True KB is not a religious nor philosophical board (though some would strongly debate the philosophy of porn) but every once in a while a subject does come up that causes a couple of neurons to fire in what is otherwise just an entertainment forum.  I do welcome those thoughts (and politics...just go into a corner and masturbate as the result is usually the same...temporary satisfaction at best!  "GUILTY")   




Survival of the fittest really means the "most suited to it's environment" the best "fit" if you will. Survival of the Strongest is simply a misunderstanding of the theory. Strongest does not mean fittest in most cases.

Second your examples don't disprove my theory at all..."Hitler, Stalin, Tojo, Mao, Pol Pot" all committed acts deemed morally corrupt and ALL have fallen due to actions of counter forces within and without their own societies.

"Morality is being responsible to a higher authority in how we interact with others."
This is a narrow view of Morality at best. Many live according to their OWN moral code without any belief in any higher authority. Otherwise this statement could be read as saying if you don't believe in a higher power you have no morality....which is false. Many secular groups have strict morals despite no higher power being present.

"Most philosophers describe "God" as the "uncaused first cause""
Most is a wide overstatement and as the topic is "Does God Exist" it does not really matter. I stated myop inion and reasoning about my Gods/Goddesses not about the ultimate first cause. The "Uncaused First Cause" also only applies in a non chaos theory or singular universe. In a Multiverse the ultimate cause of the big bang may not even have happened in our universe at all. This leads to an infinite recession loop. Therefor from this point of view it is a mute point..... this also required linear time which is in doubt these days anyway.

"Now please, for those who read and react to this posting lets continue to think critically what we profess."
Take your own advice here. You assumed no deeper thought on my part...or knowledge. This last part comes off HUGELY condescending which i choose to believe was not the point.
Feel free to ask me to clarify further. I am not a "neo pagan" or anything like that. I have thought all of my beliefs through very critically and logically.
 



Offline watasch

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Reply #1022 on: December 06, 2016, 11:13:27 PM
Well you did get online before I came back to clarify a comment.  Darwin was not about the survival of the fittest but about the ability to adapt.  Good catch.

Yes they (the despots mentioned) do apply to your theory.  They deemed, in their minds, what was best for their idea of a civilization and went about using brute force to bring about their ideas of a superior civilization.  They tried to force something, they were the strong.  Their morality is subject to hindsight but at the time the population they served, or who served them, agreed with what they were doing or were too weak to resist them.

Any group can claim to have morals, that is one thing most groups do claim.  However what may be moral in one group may well be deemed immoral by another.  Who is to say "your moral is better than mine" is the question.  Without a higher source driving people onto a better "moral standing"; then those who deem themselves stronger (physically/resourcefully stronger) can destroy those without the strength to oppose them.  Examples abound throughout history; eg:  slavery, women forced into prostitution, beheading of infidels, etc.  And in spite of a sense of "higher" morality to try and change their "adverse" behaviors, those people continue to exist (those who believe it is better to impose their morality upon others). 

My comment about the "uncaused" first cause does stand.  The question of this thread "Does God exist?" brings about that one firm question:  where did it all begin?  All things we see had a cause...except for the very first event.  What caused it?  As I stated:  philosophically:  God.  Not gods nor goddesses as they imply more than one uncaused cause.  Another example:  the multiverse theory in astrophysics.  If there are multiple universes out there, what caused the first one to come into existence?
 
And in no case did I mention, nor demean your thinking.  In fact I encouraged with my comment for others to contribute.  I quote:  ... lets continue to think critically what we profess ....  In fact I welcomed other thoughts and opinions.  If there was doubt cast upon your thinking, it came from within.



Offline Freemont

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Reply #1023 on: December 07, 2016, 08:18:27 AM
Well you did get online before I came back to clarify a comment.  Darwin was not about the survival of the fittest but about the ability to adapt.  Good catch.

Yes they (the despots mentioned) do apply to your theory.  They deemed, in their minds, what was best for their idea of a civilization and went about using brute force to bring about their ideas of a superior civilization.  They tried to force something, they were the strong.  Their morality is subject to hindsight but at the time the population they served, or who served them, agreed with what they were doing or were too weak to resist them.

Any group can claim to have morals, that is one thing most groups do claim.  However what may be moral in one group may well be deemed immoral by another.  Who is to say "your moral is better than mine" is the question.  Without a higher source driving people onto a better "moral standing"; then those who deem themselves stronger (physically/resourcefully stronger) can destroy those without the strength to oppose them.  Examples abound throughout history; eg:  slavery, women forced into prostitution, beheading of infidels, etc.  And in spite of a sense of "higher" morality to try and change their "adverse" behaviors, those people continue to exist (those who believe it is better to impose their morality upon others). 

My comment about the "uncaused" first cause does stand.  The question of this thread "Does God exist?" brings about that one firm question:  where did it all begin?  All things we see had a cause...except for the very first event.  What caused it?  As I stated:  philosophically:  God.  Not gods nor goddesses as they imply more than one uncaused cause.  Another example:  the multiverse theory in astrophysics.  If there are multiple universes out there, what caused the first one to come into existence?
 
And in no case did I mention, nor demean your thinking.  In fact I encouraged with my comment for others to contribute.  I quote:  ... lets continue to think critically what we profess ....  In fact I welcomed other thoughts and opinions.  If there was doubt cast upon your thinking, it came from within.

I think I see your point now, guess I was just tired and grumpy :)
As to the uncaused first cause I think we will just have to agree to disagree on that one as I don't ascribe to linear time  in the multiverse so cause and effect can be the same thing or rather effect can be cause. I have no proof of that as yet tho so it is only my theory and belief. :)



Offline MissBarbara

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Reply #1024 on: December 07, 2016, 03:17:18 PM

Watasch and Freemont, I think this is a fascinating discussion, and props to you both.

The problem with debating "morality," its origins, its causes, and its effects is that a definition of "morality" will always be imprecise, subjective and ilusive. As Watasch puts it:

"Any group can claim to have morals, that is one thing most groups do claim.  However what may be moral in one group may well be deemed immoral by another.  Who is to say "your moral is better than mine" is the question."

The question here seems to be two-fold: First, can there be a morality with the existence of God or, at least, without the belief in God? And second, is morality objective, or is it defined by socio-cultural mores, and mores that apply in a given place at a given time?

Freemont, I'm very unclear what you mean when you say, "I do not think any Deity is needed for Morality to exist. Darwin takes care of that." Over and above the fact that, as Watasch points out, "Survival of the Fittest" is not a Darwinian concept (it is, rather, a sociological metaphor formed from Darwin's biological observations), morality is, in essence, anti-Darwinian, since morality, in its most basic definition, means taking steps to contradict this theory and take actions -- be they laws, social mores, communal peer pressure, etc. -- to ensure that the weakest survive and the strongest do not triumph.

So, why act morally? Or, looping back to this thread's topic, can morality exist without God? Though a definition of God as "first cause" (Aristotle) or "un-caused cause" (Aquinas) is traditional, at least in the West, religion, or a belief in God, includes more than that, positioning God as a fatherly providence, a loving guide, and the like. Thus, in this context, morality flows either perfectly, out of a desire not to offend God, or imperfectly, out of a desire not to be subject to God's punishment, either in this life, or in the afterlife. This essentially sums up the Judeo-Christian, and in many ways, Western tradition.

Yet people do act morally, again under the looser definition of the term, without this belief in God, either as Father or as Punisher. I would argue that the arguments regarding repressive tyrants ultimately meeting their end -- "Hitler, Stalin, Tojo, Mao, Pol Pot" (and dozens of others throughout human history) -- does not flow from a lack of morality, but rather, the combination of many causes and forces working together (e.g. the basic human desire to exercise basic human freedoms). But despite the flaws in this particular example, it is clear from even a cursory examination of history that people, and even entire societies, so act morally for "human" reasons, and not strictly based on a belief in God.

It's worthwhile to note that questioning the existence of an "objective morality" (with or without God) is a relatively modern concept. The belief in the existence of an objective morality was posited by most societies throughout history up until recent times. To take just one example, contrary to the widely-held myth, when Jefferson compose the text to the Declaration of Independence, the document was not accepted as a whole and as is, but it was subject to fierce debate, and a long series of edits and emendations. Yet the most famous words from the document, which begin the text after the introduction -- "We hold these truths to be self-evident..." -- were accepted without question or comment. The existence of objective truth (or truths) was universally assumed.

It's interesting to apply this discussion by examining the basic tenets of modern-day Western liberalism. Despite it's flaws and contradictions -- and a healthy dollop of self-service -- it posits a need to respect, by law if necessary, other people, especially those outside the majority, based on their common humanity. And violation of these tenets of respect and support are deemed wrong based on the denial of those minorities of the basic tenets of humanity. Though it's by and large a secular undertaking, it's still an example of a belief in a common, perhaps even objective, morality.

Finally, while I agree with Watasch that "KB is not a religious nor philosophical board," it is, as per the vision of its Founder, a discussion Board, and discussions about religion and philosophy -- and morality -- have as much a place here as discussions related to sex, in its many forms and expressions. I admit that while pondering these profound topics I've had a hard time keeping my mind from drifting to that mouth-watering little gif that IdleBoast posted the other day. But I don't see these two things as in any way incompatible.






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Offline watcher1

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Reply #1025 on: December 07, 2016, 04:18:14 PM
MissB -You are turning me on again with your in-depth writing.   8)

Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds.


Offline MissBarbara

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Reply #1026 on: December 07, 2016, 04:45:21 PM

MissB -You are turning me on again with your in-depth writing.   8)



Thanks...though I'm not sure that's a good thing....   ;)






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Offline Freemont

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Reply #1027 on: December 07, 2016, 08:23:40 PM

Watasch and Freemont, I think this is a fascinating discussion, and props to you both.

The problem with debating "morality," its origins, its causes, and its effects is that a definition of "morality" will always be imprecise, subjective and ilusive. As Watasch puts it:

"Any group can claim to have morals, that is one thing most groups do claim.  However what may be moral in one group may well be deemed immoral by another.  Who is to say "your moral is better than mine" is the question."

The question here seems to be two-fold: First, can there be a morality with the existence of God or, at least, without the belief in God? And second, is morality objective, or is it defined by socio-cultural mores, and mores that apply in a given place at a given time?

Freemont, I'm very unclear what you mean when you say, "I do not think any Deity is needed for Morality to exist. Darwin takes care of that." Over and above the fact that, as Watasch points out, "Survival of the Fittest" is not a Darwinian concept (it is, rather, a sociological metaphor formed from Darwin's biological observations), morality is, in essence, anti-Darwinian, since morality, in its most basic definition, means taking steps to contradict this theory and take actions -- be they laws, social mores, communal peer pressure, etc. -- to ensure that the weakest survive and the strongest do not triumph.

So, why act morally? Or, looping back to this thread's topic, can morality exist without God? Though a definition of God as "first cause" (Aristotle) or "un-caused cause" (Aquinas) is traditional, at least in the West, religion, or a belief in God, includes more than that, positioning God as a fatherly providence, a loving guide, and the like. Thus, in this context, morality flows either perfectly, out of a desire not to offend God, or imperfectly, out of a desire not to be subject to God's punishment, either in this life, or in the afterlife. This essentially sums up the Judeo-Christian, and in many ways, Western tradition.

Yet people do act morally, again under the looser definition of the term, without this belief in God, either as Father or as Punisher. I would argue that the arguments regarding repressive tyrants ultimately meeting their end -- "Hitler, Stalin, Tojo, Mao, Pol Pot" (and dozens of others throughout human history) -- does not flow from a lack of morality, but rather, the combination of many causes and forces working together (e.g. the basic human desire to exercise basic human freedoms). But despite the flaws in this particular example, it is clear from even a cursory examination of history that people, and even entire societies, so act morally for "human" reasons, and not strictly based on a belief in God.

It's worthwhile to note that questioning the existence of an "objective morality" (with or without God) is a relatively modern concept. The belief in the existence of an objective morality was posited by most societies throughout history up until recent times. To take just one example, contrary to the widely-held myth, when Jefferson compose the text to the Declaration of Independence, the document was not accepted as a whole and as is, but it was subject to fierce debate, and a long series of edits and emendations. Yet the most famous words from the document, which begin the text after the introduction -- "We hold these truths to be self-evident..." -- were accepted without question or comment. The existence of objective truth (or truths) was universally assumed.

It's interesting to apply this discussion by examining the basic tenets of modern-day Western liberalism. Despite it's flaws and contradictions -- and a healthy dollop of self-service -- it posits a need to respect, by law if necessary, other people, especially those outside the majority, based on their common humanity. And violation of these tenets of respect and support are deemed wrong based on the denial of those minorities of the basic tenets of humanity. Though it's by and large a secular undertaking, it's still an example of a belief in a common, perhaps even objective, morality.

Finally, while I agree with Watasch that "KB is not a religious nor philosophical board," it is, as per the vision of its Founder, a discussion Board, and discussions about religion and philosophy -- and morality -- have as much a place here as discussions related to sex, in its many forms and expressions. I admit that while pondering these profound topics I've had a hard time keeping my mind from drifting to that mouth-watering little gif that IdleBoast posted the other day. But I don't see these two things as in any way incompatible.






Very well put :)

To clarify What I mean by not needing a Deity for there to be morality - I refer to an inbuilt drive toward balance in all things. As such one can devise a code of conduct, or an idea as to what constitutes right and wrong actions without any recourse to a higher power. Morality defined according to a belief in any god-form ultimately comes from being told what is right and wrong and, ultimately, a set of punishments or rewards. Is this truly "moral"? Doing anything or not doing anything because of a fear of punishment or withheld blessings is not really a "moral" choice.

Rather I feel that most of us, for example, do not steal not because we fear imprisonment or do not kill because we fear damnation. No. I feel we do not do these things because, deep down we FEEL these things to be wrong. Do we need a God/Goddess/Law to make us believe these things are wrong? I don't think so. So that is all I mean. We can decide not to do something or that something is wrong ourselves.
Many secular people, with no belief in any higher power, have very strict moral codes. Hense no Godform is needed for morality. Finally Morality defined by belief is open to horrific abuse.... see the Crusades, Salem Witch Trials, Spanish Inquisition, etc.

On the subject of What you said regarding Survival of the Fittest I do disagree on one point. Morality is in face HUGELY Darwinian. Without a common code of conduct or agreed morality it would be much more difficult for societies as a whole to agree/co-operate/act as one. So applying Darwinism to the society as whole rather then as individuals the most co-operative society will flourish over unruly or dis-united neighbors. This will benefit it in the long run.
Language was one of out most important evolutionary jumps because it allowed us to work together better. Morality does the same.

On a personal note I think I find the idea of applying the principles of Darwin to larger and larger groups to be fascinating. Taking a society as a macro-organism with people as cells of a much larger creature certainly changes the views of history. Racism, Slavery, Extremist beliefs, Unchecked Aggression ... all become cancers/diseases in the macro organism that sometimes lead to short term increases in power or sizer but ultimately tear it apart or eat it alive from the inside.



Offline MissBarbara

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Reply #1028 on: December 08, 2016, 06:38:52 PM
Freemont:

If I'm reading you correctly, you seem to believe that morality is an internal thing.

There are some -- though not me -- who would argue that God (or Gods, or whatever) is also an internal thing, a completely human construct that was created by humans to make sense of the world around them, explain mysteries, or, more prosaically, serve as an "excuse" for actions that would otherwise be untenable, actions based not on religion or God, but rather, on one of the most basic human urges, power and domination.

Others -- like me -- would argue that God exists in and of himself, separate and eternal, omnipotent and omniscient, a creator (though not necessarily the creator as depicted by fundamentalists and evangelicals) who preserves the world in existence. To roughly translate the famous passage of Moses before the burning bush, "God is is."

From what you wrote above, you seem to posit an internal human drive or urge, "an inbuilt drive toward balance in all things" which lead humans to "not do these things because, deep down we FEEL these things to be wrong." Interestingly, those concepts fit both of my definitions above, a type of God (or not) that is a human construct, and a type of God that exists. And this all aligns with various concepts like "self-evident truths" or "natural law."

I still disagree with (or don't understand the point of) your using a metaphorical definition of Darwinism to explain the existence of morality, or moral codes. You write, "Without a common code of conduct or agreed morality it would be much more difficult for societies as a whole to agree/co-operate/act as one." I agree it would be "much more difficult," but this can't be explained by Darwinism, or Survival of the Fittest, neither in a biological sense, nor in a human historical sense. In fact, history, from the dawn of time, seems to indicate otherwise. 

Finally, you assert, "Morality defined by belief is open to horrific abuse....see the Crusades, Salem Witch Trials, Spanish Inquisition, etc." Morality defined by non-belief, or even immorality defined by belief, is also open to horrific abuse. See the many instances in the 20th and early 21st century -- and throughout all of human history -- where horrific abuses were committed outside the realm of belief, or by a regime that aggressively proclaimed the non-existence of God (Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, etc.). In other words, as I alluded to above, this happens irrespective of morality, or religion, or moral codes.

I agree that morality can exist outside of religion, or religious belief. I also agree that codes of conduct -- chiefly in the form of laws, or even societal peer pressure -- are human constructs, based on a belief in what you refer to as a Godform -- or based on human desires.





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Offline Freemont

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Reply #1029 on: December 08, 2016, 08:19:49 PM
Yes you are reading it how I meant :) Morality is an internal thing as I see it.

While there are many things about the human mind that still eludes us to this day, even biologically, our understanding leaves a lot to be desired I feel that eventually we will find a center for these feelings of morality somewhere in there. Much like empathy does.

Sociopaths as sometimes referred to, colloquially, as "Morally Insane" suggesting an actual Biological seat/cause within the brain is responsible for morality. However, if that proves false, even a mental construct is enough. Differences in the biological/mental mental construct can help to explain the shifting morality experienced throughout the ages as well as the effect alcohol and other drugs have on moral decisions.

Regarding my view of morality as a Darwinian force all I can say is this... either there is a biological moral center in which case biological Darwinian rules do apply to it or not.
If not then consider the society as a macro-organism. Both sociology and psychology tell us that while in a group a person often acts according to the will of the whole rather then their own will. This is how riots, mobs, cults etc work. So take the society in question at the time, see it as one single biological entity and forces like morality, forces of behavior, become its biological processes. In this situation you can apply Darwinian pressures and laws to it.

Finally taking Darwin strictly within the limits of its initial theory would ignore the fact that behavior, not biology is the evolution of the higher animals. To exaggerate wildly to make a point: to survive global warming we will have to evolve greener behavior as we don't have time to evolve gills.

Now I don't claim my theories/views on Darwin and its ability to apply to societies and behavior are correct. They are simply part of how I think about the world.



Offline MissBarbara

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Reply #1030 on: December 09, 2016, 04:32:10 PM

Finally taking Darwin strictly within the limits of its initial theory would ignore the fact that behavior, not biology is the evolution of the higher animals. To exaggerate wildly to make a point: to survive global warming we will have to evolve greener behavior as we don't have time to evolve gills.


I think that this paragraph blows your argument out of the water. Though we're straying farther and farther from the topic of this thread, taking steps to prevent or ameliorate the effects of global warming is per se anti-evolutionary, similar to the way that species protection or taking steps to preserve and enhance biodiversity is also anti-evolutionary.

I suppose your assertions would fit is one defines "Evolution" in a strictly sociological sense, that is, humans, collectively or individually, taking steps to progressively or developmentally improve society and improve the lot of the members of society. But even that can be seen as anti-evolutionary, as I noted above.

Morality -- be it something innate, something that has evolved, something that has been legally codified, something that flows form societal peer pressure, or something that it is a response to a compulsion from a God or Creator -- guides humans to not act upon the impulses of their lower natures.





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Offline Freemont

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Reply #1031 on: December 09, 2016, 06:49:22 PM

Finally taking Darwin strictly within the limits of its initial theory would ignore the fact that behavior, not biology is the evolution of the higher animals. To exaggerate wildly to make a point: to survive global warming we will have to evolve greener behavior as we don't have time to evolve gills.


I think that this paragraph blows your argument out of the water. Though we're straying farther and farther from the topic of this thread, taking steps to prevent or ameliorate the effects of global warming is per se anti-evolutionary, similar to the way that species protection or taking steps to preserve and enhance biodiversity is also anti-evolutionary.

I suppose your assertions would fit is one defines "Evolution" in a strictly sociological sense, that is, humans, collectively or individually, taking steps to progressively or developmentally improve society and improve the lot of the members of society. But even that can be seen as anti-evolutionary, as I noted above.

Morality -- be it something innate, something that has evolved, something that has been legally codified, something that flows form societal peer pressure, or something that it is a response to a compulsion from a God or Creator -- guides humans to not act upon the impulses of their lower natures.





Your point stands only if you assume actions taken to affect your environment is anti-evolutionary. On this I simply disagree. I see any action or change taken, be it biological or behavioral, as being effected by evolutionary laws.

Now I do grant that a strict adherence to the theory as written by Darwin would COMPLETELY preclude what I am saying. But any theory that is not looked at in new ways will eventually lose relevance. Applying observed natural laws to new systems and different systems has to remain a part of our thinking if we want to continue to see things in new ways. 


Morality -- be it something innate, something that has evolved, something that has been legally codified, something that flows form societal peer pressure, or something that it is a response to a compulsion from a God or Creator -- guides humans to not act upon the impulses of their lower natures.



Here we run into simply my differing point of view. I do not agree that we must suppress our lower natures. It is this idea of suppressing part of ourselves that leads to a lot of problems for modern humanity. Accepting our whole nature, good and bad, is the key to ending a lot of problems. I also believe that those very natures we are encouraged to suppress may hold the key to discovering a more even and peaceful version of humanity. But as you said about the evolution discussion I am not sure that is relevant to this thread :) 



Offline Lois

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Reply #1032 on: December 14, 2016, 04:04:24 AM
Sorry folks, but there is no god. 

But I applaud those that find fulfillment in their spirituality and find they have the inspiration to do good, and even great and wonderful things.  I believe that doing such is its own reward.

As for those that use their religion to do evil, and justify the most heinous acts, then I hope there is a god so that they will suffer punishment beyond any I can give.



Offline Lois

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Reply #1033 on: December 15, 2016, 01:59:29 AM
No?



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Reply #1034 on: December 15, 2016, 02:46:56 AM



Offline MintJulie

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Reply #1035 on: December 15, 2016, 02:51:39 AM

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          You might not know this, but I have a thing for Tom Brady (and Bill Clinton)
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POY 2016


Offline Lois

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Reply #1036 on: December 16, 2016, 12:59:04 AM
Sounds about right, Jules!



Offline Fish

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Reply #1037 on: December 23, 2016, 07:16:22 AM
There was one like this right by my house: it said atheists make better lovers, because nobody's watching.

I agree.

Don't sweat the petty stuff, pet the sweaty stuff.


Offline Lois

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Reply #1038 on: December 24, 2016, 01:24:13 AM
My sister was going to come and visit.  But she canceled because it is expected to snow.

I am sad, but also a little relieved.  I love my sister, but when she gets into her "You must be saved or your going to hell" stick it's a little hard to take.  If there is a god, and he's worried about sending people to hell over trivial shit like that, I'm not interested.



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Reply #1039 on: December 24, 2016, 05:08:46 AM
Heaven sounds awful - all my favorite people are horrible sinners save one.

Don't sweat the petty stuff, pet the sweaty stuff.