Does God exist?

[Grm]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/05/27/vatican-confirms-atheists-still-going-to-hell_n_3341368.html?utm_hp_ref=uk&ncid=edlinkusaolp00000008

[MissBarbara]

Forgetfulish posted this in another thread, and I have reposted it here, since this seems a more appropriate place.

Then again, "mindless" should also apply here, since whoever created this meme is clearly ignorant of both the meaning of "atheism" and of the religious beliefs of many of the individuals depicted.

I don't know who the guy in the upper right corner is, nor the guy in the center at the bottom (though if it's Karl Marx, then he certainly was an atheist). And I have no idea about Hemingway's religious beliefs.

However:

* Bexy is correct about Albert Einstein:

They made a mistake in this meme. Albert Einstein was an agnostic. And that's also why he's one of my favourite scientists.

Though many have misquoted Einstein, or taken his words out of context, in order to make him appear to be a believer, he was not, at least not in any traditional meaning of that word. He did not deny God's existence, but neither did he assert it. The most honest thing that can be said about Einstein's beliefs is that he admitted the possibility of the existence of God, but nothing more than that. Still, that in no way makes him an atheist.

* Mark Twain was aggressively and outspokenly against organized religion in general and Christianity in particular. He was especially condemnatory of religious hypocrisy (just as he was condemnatory of every form of hypocrisy). But even in his most famous work on this subject, the novel "The Mysterious Stranger," he reserved his condemnations for religious hypocrisy, and it is more of a social critique, a commentary on human foibles, than a religious critique. And it in no way makes him an atheist.

* Abraham Lincoln's religious beliefs are impossible to quantify. One could easily produce a list of quotations indicating he was an atheist, and then produce an equally long list of quotes demonstrating that he believed in God. His almost incessant quotations from the Bible are no help either, since its unclear whether he used them for their religious or literary value. And, to further complicate matters, Lincoln was a consummate politician, and he was never afraid to bend his comments to align them with those of his particular audience. Numerous articles, and dozens of books, have been written about Lincoln's religious beliefs. None of them, to my mind, conclusively prove Lincoln's beliefs either way.

When he was younger he was aggressively skeptical about God and religion, but it's unclear whether that reflected he genuine beliefs, or if it was simply youthful iconoclasm (and if nothing else, Lincoln, perhaps more than any other president, was never afraid to "mix things up"). He was not, by his own admission, a traditional Christian ("That I am not a member of any Christian church is true"). But he clearly seemed to believe that God -- some type of divine intelligence -- guided his thoughts and helped him see both the truth and the proper path. And, more to the point, he never denied the existence of God, nor did he deny the possibility of the existence of God.

* Benjamin Franklin is equally problematic. Like Lincoln, you could line of quotes indicating he was an atheist and quotes indicating that he was a theist. But one quote in particular seems to make clear his actual beliefs: "I never doubted, for instance, the existence of the Deity; that He made the world, and governed it by His providence; that the most acceptable service of God was the doing good to man; that our souls are immortal; and that all crime will be punished, and virtue rewarded, either here or hereafter."

* Thomas Jefferson was neither an atheist nor an agnostic. The belief that Jefferson was an atheist is surprisingly persistent, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary. Jefferson was very clear in his belief that Reason should always trump superstition, but that in no way makes him an atheist. Neither does his core belief in the complete separation of religion and politics. He certainly was not a Christian, since he specifically denied the divinity of Christ. He believed Christ was merely a righteous Preacher/Teacher, who, though not divine, still should be heeded.

But as for his belief in God, later in life he set pen to paper to clearly outline the content of his beliefs:

"1. There is only one God, and he is all perfect.
2. There is a future state, of rewards and punishments.
3. To love God with all thy heart and thy neighbor as thyself is the sum of all religion."

In sum, like virtually everything else about him, Jefferson's religious beliefs were sui generis. But that uniqueness in no way abrogates his clear belief in at least some sort of God.







Fixed name 

[Elizabeth]

The Upper Right Corner Guy is one of my favorite Astronomy Professors
That's "Carl Sagan" Noted Astronomer and Professor at Cornell University.
Love,
Liz

[Bexy]

Fixed name 

What did she write? What did she write?! Goddammit Eric, now I can't mock Miss B. for misspelling my name! LOL

Miss B., great piece of research. I didn't bother to look up the others, but I do know my Einstein. I guess those are my qualms with the atheist/anti-christian ideas, they're just as blinkered as the extreme Christian ideas.

[coacheric]

Pretty sure it was Betsy!!   

[MissBarbara]

Fixed name 

What did she write? What did she write?! Goddammit Eric, now I can't mock Miss B. for misspelling my name! LOL

Miss B., great piece of research. I didn't bother to look up the others, but I do know my Einstein. I guess those are my qualms with the atheist/anti-christian ideas, they're just as blinkered as the extreme Christian ideas.

I think I wrote "Betsy" by mistake. I had just had a phone conversation with a friend named Betsy before I wrote that...

And you're right, that was pretty much my point. People feel a compulsion to "claim" people for their side, regardless of that person's actual beliefs. And the same goes for Christians and anti-Christians. It's even worse, as I indicated, when people pull quotes from a given individual, as if that "proves" a single thing.

God's existence will never be proven, and God's non-existence will never be proven.

[Katiebee]

Well most of us aren't going to tell once we have verifiable proof, one way or the other.

[Fish]

Woo for good research as well, B.

I had known about Einstein and Jefferson, but to be honest, I posted the image anyway, because I thought it was a funny enough concept, even if a bit unrealistic when it came to the particular concept of their beliefs.

The Ben Franklin quote you found was awesome, you completely had me there, I had never read that anywhere, so thanks for that.

I have read enough Twain to have conflicting notions as to his beliefs as well, but I'd likely peg him as agnostic, not athiest. He was close to being an athiest, though.

I myself am agnostic, but I used to be an athiest. As often as I can, I disregard the issue of God entirely, but she/he/it almost certainly exists, though we likely know nothing at all on the subject.

[DrWoody]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/05/27/vatican-confirms-atheists-still-going-to-hell_n_3341368.html?utm_hp_ref=uk&ncid=edlinkusaolp00000008

["The Vatican has clarified that atheists will still go to hell  . . . ."]

. . . as will murders [Revelation 21:8]. Does this mean that all the Popes and Vatican officials of the 12th through the 17th centuries, go to hell for the murder of hundreds if not thousands of free thinkers during the Inquisition who were burned at the stake for saying that the earth revolves around the sun?

On November 1, 1992, the church finally admitted that the earth is not the center of the universe and that the sun does not revolve around the earth. "Moving formally to rectify a wrong, Pope John Paul II acknowledged in a speech today that the Roman Catholic Church had erred in condemning Galileo 359 years ago for asserting that the Earth revolves around the Sun."

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/11/01/world/vatican-science-panel-told-by-pope-galileo-was-right.html

[Lostforkate]

Very good Miss B.

What I like about the Jefferson, Franklin, and Lincoln is that they were very wise and thoughtful in their approach to faith. What I get from reading history, and understanding some of their comments is that they did NOT believe God had to be defined by humanity. I believe if one was to test their comments and quotes against the concept "God, Providence, exists, can direct and lead men, but cannot be defined singularly by humanity" would be a close statement of their viewpoint.

I believe these men read the Bible and appreciated its truths, but they did not did take Bible literally, but more from allegorical and metaphoric sense concerning spiritual things. Anyway, I find a wisdom in their balanced approaches to clear thinking, and blending of the prayer, and spiritual things.

One of the paradoxical lives in the Bible that leads me to understanding that it is not one action, not set of actions, but is important to have a heart for God is the story of David. A person God picked to be a King sinned terribly, but yet God described David as man after his heart.

[Katiebee]

GB, you are very astute in your analysis of these men. They were a product of their times and more importantly, were men of Reason. They read and subscribed to the Humanist philosophy. You can be religious without being fundamentalist.

They were firm believers that if God gave them the power of reason, not to exercise it would be blasphemous. Which means they questioned the "Devine Right" to rule their thoughts and actions by kings and religious leaders.

Something more people who are bogged down in church dogma and bureaucracies should do.

Edited for spelling by your friendly caretaker grm.

[Fish]

Woo.

[unclebuddy]

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” Epicurus, BC 341-470

[unclebuddy]

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7

[Katiebee]

It is convenient that the bible allows so many variations and interpretations. And you can prove and then refute most things by simply referring to different chapters in the bible.

[Elizabeth]

11 men and over 100 years to write the bible.
You would have thought "one" of them would have gotten it right.

Love,
Liz

[Fish]

It's hard enough to write a consistent text with two authors! The biblical authors didn't even all speak the same language, and most were not telling a story from their actual lifetime, but rather an oral tradition.

[unclebuddy]

It is convenient that the bible allows so many variations and interpretations. And you can prove and then refute most things by simply referring to different chapters in the bible.

Miss Katie--My point was that "God" created evil.  It says so in the Bible and the Bible is the literal word of "God."   For the life of me I can't understand why a loving father and protector would do such a  thing.  There is much evil in the world and "He" allows it.  Some people in here are really upset about gun deaths but no one gives much thought to illness, disease, abuse, or accidents or "God's" role in them or failure to prevent them.  if He exists why won't he protect us from evil?

[Katiebee]

My point is that the Bible is not the literal word of God, but the interpretation of concepts by men, often from oral tradition.

Christians conveniently forget that Jesus was a rabbi, and was primarily interested in reforming the Jewish religion. The Bible, is not a standalone document inherited directly by Christians. It is a compilation of the Tanakh, And writings collected after the death of Jesus. Often these writings were not contemporaneous with the life of Jesus but were written after many decades after his death.

[unclebuddy]

 I know.  Was tortured in Catholic school by Sr St Dominic for more years than...OK.  I still occasionally dream about her half inch thick oaken yardstick.  That woman once hit me in the back of the head with a piece of chalk at forty yards.  I was running flat out, too.  I am aware of the bibles 3000 year old history.  Whether or not it's the spoken word of god depends on who you talk to.  My catechism was firmly beaten into me and I've spoken to enough born again Christians and latter day saints to have a pretty good idea how the majority of us feel about it.  Middle America firmly believes every word and the christian right is for real. 


    Me?  I quit believing in the third grade.