Does God exist?

[buddyChrist]

Before I was allowed to marry my wife in a Lutheran church, I had to have discussions with another church member. I was apprehensive about it, but it turned into a decent experience. I expected a lot of browbeating to take place. The guy was actually very open minded to the world, and what I had to say. to be honest, I am not sure what I think. I firmly believe in science, but at the same time, there are so many things that appear to be random that are required for life, could a higher power be responsible?
The problem for me is that I was brought up in a family of southern baptists. Very much the people who use religion when convenient. I was also brought up to respect what I was told by my elders. I still sometimes just accept the fact there is a God. Other times, I am not so sure. I figure that it is my past family experience that draws me back to there being a God.
Why can't science help explain how God accomplished everything? Maybe we can debunk God, but at the same time, science could confirm it. Think about things like the curse of the mummy's tomb, off the top of my head, I think it was Tutanchamun. Anyone who went in there got sick and died. Come to find out, it was a spore. I could be remembering this incorrectly, but I think the jist is there. Nothing supernatural, just something we did not know about, until we looked.
Personally, I look for signs. Faith is a fine thing, but I would think that a truly benevolent God would want believers to question in him, and find the reason to believe. Not just have faith that the reasons are there. For some, the sun rising in the morning might be enough. For others, it might be the sudden curing of an illness. To me, I want to believe, but science can explain all this. Just my being here is not enough. Perhaps if someone can explain why, then I might have my answers.

[Grm]

It seem quiet common for those who believe in a god to criticise science, as though science is an alternative faith at war their god. But science is not about belief but humanity's constant questioning of the world around him, looking for explanations to our existence and the mechanisms that operate our world and the universe and testing these theories to prove their accuracy. I'm not sure scientists need to look for god's existence, they have more than enough to work on and I'm sure if god does want to acquaint humanity that he is indeed up there keeping an eye on us he will have no difficulty doing so.

[Ric9009]

Grm,

Did you read that a survey conducted in the US asked those that indicated they were atheists whether they believed in any greater being and more than 20% indicated that they believed there was some lifeforce or being greater than man that created the universe.  That indicates that there are quite a few people out there that think they are atheists when they are not.  I wonder if the opposite question was asked to those that say they are something else actually are athiests.  I once was talking with a girl who said she was a Christian but then quite seriously said that she did not believe in God or in any being that created the Universe and that thinking  that there was some supreme being that created the universe "was just silly".

There is a Zen Coan that I rather like:

All things return to the One.
What does the One return to?

[Poppet]

Science and Religion are different. In many ways they are not able to be reconciled. Nor ought they be. Religion is about BELIEF. Science is about the testable nature of a hypothesis and data reproducibility. These two concepts are fundamentally opposed to one another. I'm fine with that. I'm also fine with saying that there are some things for which Science does not yet have an explanation (see big-bang, above). I'm completely unfine with anyone (dimwit or social manipulator) citing that as a reason to invoke the supernatural. Anyone with a couple of neurones should be able to see through that and those who can't deserve our protection, not our scorn (tempting though that may be).

As for pre-big bang? Not so convinced by the quantum theory argument that things CAN actually "just happen", but I never really studied QM so..... I just remember the old adage "energy can neither be created nor destroyed". I also didn't think that one could have gravity without mass, and since energy and mass are two sides of the Einstein coin, maybe the big bang represents a threshold event where some very high energy element lost ground to some as yet undefined frictional force and mass was suddenly realised. High-school concepts I know and yes, no mass would = no energy under Einstein, but... well.. just a thought. Hey, I was traveling for 24 hrs.

good to be back
P

[watcher1]

Does God exist?  A question that has been tossed about for centuries without a definite conclusion of whether there is a God or there isn't. For those who tend to believe there is a God, cool. For those who tend to not believe in a God, also cool.  The trouble starts, in my opinion, when one camp tries to use their reasoning, whether sound or not, to disqualify the others camp.  Poppet stated it correctly when she said religion is about belief and science is about the testable nature of a hypothesis and data reproductablity.

Welcome back, Pop! 

[Ric9009]

With respect to the Big Bang Theory, there are alternatives.  It is not science that is universally accepted.  Indeed, since the universe is made up of matter 98% of which is not known to scientists, there are credible theories that suggest that the universe did not start with a big bang but the reading of what matter makes up space is off by a tiny amount, mostly in the amount of hydrogen and this accounts for much of the Doppler shift rather than an accelerating universe moving apart in all directions.  There are other theories as well.

There are also theories that suggest that a big bang is but one cycle in an unknown number of events that involve a big bang and about 40 billion years later with a big crunch for want of a better term that reduces the universe to a space so small that the entire cycle begins again.  That theory doesn't have a great deal of evidence. It is just a theory but if it is correct then the evidence would not exist simply because the cycle would destroy all evidence every time it returned to a super dense point.

But if you decide that the Big Bang theory is the most logical of the theories currently available that does not suggest a "being" responsible for anything, only a further question.  One of the problems with science and religion has always been that science does not have all the answers and the less answers known the more likely that religion is dominant in people's lives.  The Catholic Church recognised this very early on and locked up those people who dared question such thing as the diffraction of light, the solar system or whatever.
 
If you believe in God simply because you need a reason for the Big Bang then that is not a God that is of any importance to humans.  It is a being that started a Universe and then let things go.  Current religions rely on decides what happan interventionist God, than may answer prays and certainly decides on the fate of humans individually beyond death.  I would simply like to know how rationally the thought that God exists because He existed to start the Big Bang ends up with the idea that there is a God that interested in humans or intercedes in their lives.  Rationally the Bible says very clearly about a man who said that before the end of his disciple's lives the Kingdom of Heaven would take all believers up.  Rationally Mohammad's writings could be put down to a megalomaniac, a person suffering from a brain disorder or a very clever man who wished to impose better order on a society constantly engaged in tribal warfare.

By definition faith means the belief in something without proof.  If that is the choice of a Muslim or a Christian or any other religious person, fine, as long as they do not attempt to force their beliefs on others.  Unfortunately much of history relates to just that and very bloody wars fought over just whose belief was the one that should be dominant.

[Grm]

"The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."
�- Thomas Jefferson, 1813

[Grm]

Stephen Hawking says universe not created by God.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/sep/02/stephen-hawking-big-bang-creator

[Bexy]

:

[celticfeline]

idk if i said this earlier or not.....i am in line with the thinking like Bexy...sorta....there is a force that is both internal and exeternal.  Call it what you will, but i think different people can comprehend different pieces of the same force, deity, god, goddess, flying spaghetti monster, and based on that they build their religion to the one twue god.  But i think all are facets of the same.  Though every now and again i lay in bed and the Catholic doctrine comes poking at my brain going "hey! hey you heretic...you going to hellllll"  Then i rememeber that hell is a creation of mankind and roll over.  Then it goes "hrmmm but aren't you human too? What if you're wronnnng"  Then i just tell it to fuck off so i can sleep.

[insatiable]

Then it goes "hrmmm but aren't you human too? What if you're wronnnng"  Then i just tell it to fuck off so i can sleep.

A good treatise on "what if you are wrong"

[celticfeline]

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[starsapphire]

Rowan Atkinson skit re: What if you're wrong?

Atkinson stands centre stage dressed in black with two horns on his head and a clipboard in his hand. Clearly he's the devil doing 'intake' to Hell.

Devil: Ok you lot over there, that's it! Now Christians? Christians over here please, yes over here. Christians, sorry but you were wrong!

[watcher1]

idk if i said this earlier or not.....i am in line with the thinking like Bexy...sorta....there is a force that is both internal and exeternal.  Call it what you will.

The force has a name. He is called Watcher.  

[Poppet]

RE: Does God Exist?

sing along kiddies, to the tune of "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star"

*ahem...*


No, no, no, no, no, no, noooo
No, no, no, no, no, no, noooo
No, no, no, no, no, no, no
No, no, no, no, no, no, no
No, no, no, no, no, no, noooo
No, No, No, No, NO, NO, NOOOOOOOO


P

[RopeFiend]

1)  In the beginning, all was darkness and without form.  GOD mysteriously appeared out of nowhere and created everything...

2)  In the beginning, all was darkness and without form.  THE UNIVERSE mysteriously appeared out of nothing, creating everything we see.


Occam's razor: we have two events describing reality, but ONE of them requires an additional imaginary friend.  By simple logic, if GOD could create himself out of nothing, then so could the universe, and the universe doesn't need any fictional stories to support itself.

THEREFORE, the Big Bang killed God.  The interstellar background temperature from the violent explosion of creation is the Smoking Gun.  Sorry, no 'grassy knoll' in this rendition.    Ding, dong, the witch is dead.

[Lois]

[Melissa]

To add to that, there are far too many occurrences of those who were terminally ill with inoperable cancer who were later cancer-free.  I saw a documentary a few years ago with several doctor interviews where they clearly could not explain the recovery of some patients.

I know of a nine-year-old girl who had seven brain tumors.  Both her father and uncle died of brain cancer.  Four of the three were inoperable.  She underwent chemotherapy during which time the inoperable tumors decreased or were no longer present.  Later, the others were removed by surgery.  She's now fourteen and very healthy.

One could say it's simply technology working.  But, how is it the inoperable tumors were removed by chemo and the remaining were removed by surgery for her to become cancer-free just a couple years later?  That's a little more coincidence than I can accept.

[Poppet]

will someone please find the Synapse Fairy and tell her that her Glutamate shaker is empty?

Pop

[Lois]

To add to that, there are far too many occurrences of those who were terminally ill with inoperable cancer who were later cancer-free. 

Oh yeah, it's a virtual epidemic.  Folks are getting better all over and just walking out of hospitals .....