The Clinton Thread: All things Hillary

[Shlong Connery]

No, just another poor slob with Obama derangement syndrome transferring same to Hillary.

[thetaxmancometh]

No, I am someone who believes in conservative economics and not socialistic idiocy.... like you do, I infer.

[Lois]

No, I am someone who believes in conservative economics and not socialistic idiocy.... like you do, I infer.

In other words: a man without a brain or a heart.

Conservative economics:  Spend lots of money on the military and let children starve.

Socialism:  Treat everyone like family and care for one another.  This was also taught by none other than Jesus Christ.

[thetaxmancometh]

You misunderstood the quote Lois, or are just ignorant (edit: ) of it. The quote is

"If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart.  If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain."

True enough, though almost certainly not Churchill's quote.

Conservative economics: Everyone is entitled to the money they earn from their hard work/skill. The smaller the government, the better it serves.

Liberal Economics: Steal from those who work to give to the lazy people who don't.

If you really want to be specific, I follow the FA Hayek school of economics, you almost certainly don't understand that or know anything about it... after all, you are the brilliant mind that thinks that republicans wanted cheaper oil so they attacked Iraq and that republicans want more expensive oil so they reject the Iran deal :p

[Katiebee]

Lois, there is no purpose in debating with someone who only uses ad hominem attacks.

[thetaxmancometh]

And Katiebee, in her wisdom, didn't notice that Lois started the ad hom attacks.


I despair of you.

[MissBarbara]

Lois, there is no purpose in debating with someone who only uses ad hominem attacks.

And, thus, my comparison with snomw...

[Katiebee]

Knowing what constitutes an ad hominem attack versus a disagreement with the base premise is important. When that knowledge or interpretation is lacking, then the thread rapidly degenerates.

[thetaxmancometh]

Yup, look at all the ad homs against me, but you only speak when I respond. Either of you ladies, feel free to admit (or deny) that you only look at the ad homs I respond to, not the ones that precipitate my own. I imagine that you will ignore that once again 

Frankly, I am just about the only person on this board that offers anything except ad hom attacks. You guys disagree with me politically and instead of trying to debate, you snark.... look at any of the threads you like for that, the gun thread would be a good example.
That shows a sad lack of desire to learn on your part. The only way that you will ever learn anything is to talk to those who disagree with you... the liberal circle jerk might be comforting for you, but it will not expand your mind. My goal is not to convince you of anything, but to try to get you to critically think and to evaluate your own positions.

Sorry that medicine is too bitter for, well, pretty much all of you. I had some small hope for MB but she slipped into the same "snarking" and "pithy one liners" that she specifically accused Toe and Katie of.

[MissBarbara]

Yup, look at all the ad homs against me, but you only speak when I respond. Either of you ladies, feel free to admit (or deny) that you only look at the ad homs I respond to, not the ones that precipitate my own. I imagine that you will ignore that once again 

Frankly, I am just about the only person on this board that offers anything except ad hom attacks. You guys disagree with me politically and instead of trying to debate, you snark.... look at any of the threads you like for that, the gun thread would be a good example.
That shows a sad lack of desire to learn on your part. The only way that you will ever learn anything is to talk to those who disagree with you... the liberal circle jerk might be comforting for you, but it will not expand your mind. My goal is not to convince you of anything, but to try to get you to critically think and to evaluate your own positions.

Sorry that medicine is too bitter for, well, pretty much all of you. I had some small hope for MB but she slipped into the same "snarking" and "pithy one liners" that she specifically accused Toe and Katie of.

I was going to respond to your OP -- on point, and without ad hominem attacks. But you have now -- twice -- posted something on the public board that I mentioned to you in a private message. And both times you have misquoted me and twisted my  words in that PM.

Do you know what the word "private" means?

Do you understand that it is a gross and borderline unforgivable violation of confidence to reveal something in public that I said in private without my permission?

[Athos_131]

Yup, look at all the ad homs against me, but you only speak when I respond. Either of you ladies, feel free to admit (or deny) that you only look at the ad homs I respond to, not the ones that precipitate my own. I imagine that you will ignore that once again 

Frankly, I am just about the only person on this board that offers anything except ad hom attacks. You guys disagree with me politically and instead of trying to debate, you snark.... look at any of the threads you like for that, the gun thread would be a good example.
That shows a sad lack of desire to learn on your part. The only way that you will ever learn anything is to talk to those who disagree with you... the liberal circle jerk might be comforting for you, but it will not expand your mind. My goal is not to convince you of anything, but to try to get you to critically think and to evaluate your own positions.

Sorry that medicine is too bitter for, well, pretty much all of you. I had some small hope for MB but she slipped into the same "snarking" and "pithy one liners" that she specifically accused Toe and Katie of.

[Lois]

You misunderstood the quote Lois, or are just ignorant (edit: ) of it.

You are quite right, I am ignorant of the quote.  I was not quoting anyone, just saying the truth as I see it.

Accordingly, your blithering on shows you to be a dullard, in addition to having no brain and no heart.

[Katiebee]

Yeah, it is definitely because she is a woman. Good call. You are one of that crazy people that think any criticism towards a woman is sexist and any criticism towards a minority is racist, arnt you? Sad.

Well Lois, you should like your candidate. You should like what they believe. You should like what they stand for. You should like the character that they demonstrate.... no wonder you can't admit to liking Hillary. You seem to think that I am talking about being friends... liking a candidate isn't the same as being friends.

Rather than addressing Lois' post about the connotation of the word "like", you postponed that expansion on your meaning, which was inferred, though open to interpretation, and launched immediately into a personal attack.

While Lois' post was rather sharp, it was not an ad hominem.

Your opening response was purely ad hominem.

It would appear from this and your responses to other criticisms of your arguments in other threads, that your first response to someone disagreeing strongly to your argument is to make an ad hominem response.

This is not conjecture, but observation of your posts.

Your refutation is awaited.

[Bexy]

Socialism:  Treat everyone like family and care for one another.  This was also taught by none other than Jesus Christ.

In my country 'socialism' means: 'I'm too lazy to work as hard as you, so I'm going to get the state to force you to pay all kinds of unearned benefits to me.'

In my country socialism pretty much equals parasitism...

[thetaxmancometh]

MB, you didn't ask for anything to be private and I quoted you correctly (I will post the message if you like). The messages here are not labeled private and I looked at it much like I would an email, something that is personal correspondence but not private. If you feel that I violated some sort of privacy with you, my apologies, I didn't know that you wanted privacy on that matter.

Katie, you and Lois both have shown a pattern of being unable to address points and making ad hom attacks. If you would like to deny that, now would be the time... please deny or confirm openly and clearly.

 With that pattern being the case, I took Lois's clear personal attack and responded exactly in kind plus a little. Are you going to claim that Lois did and does not make ad homs? Are you going to show a single instance of her responding to arguments and not arguers? I do not believe so.

I do not regret responding in kind, but I regret the nessesity for doing so. I told you, lois, and the others who want to attack me over my message several times that I will respond to attacks in exactly the same manner that I receive them. The one time that I snarked first, I apologized immediately. If you want to play board referee, that is fine but that will require for you to hold yourself to a higher standard and calling all parties equally. You have yet to do so and I do not expect you to start doing so.

Very few people here post any meaningful rebuttal, they just snark. Look at the gun thread for an example. I posted facts and figures and I got snark and "feelings". The only thread where people have posted and seemed to seek an intelligent debate was the Iran thread I started. I would love for people here to choose to have debates over arguments.... but I am not sure anyone else is willing. I will make a post and find out.

[Lois]

Yeah, it is definitely because she is a woman. Good call. You are one of that crazy people that think any criticism towards a woman is sexist and any criticism towards a minority is racist, arnt you? Sad.

Not sad at all, but a fucking fair question.

Why didn't you ask:

1.  Do you actually like any politician?

2. Does anyone think Hillary will do a good job?

Well Lois, you should like your candidate. You should like what they believe. You should like what they stand for. You should like the character that they demonstrate.... no wonder you can't admit to liking Hillary. You seem to think that I am talking about being friends... liking a candidate isn't the same as being friends.

So now you are trying to turn your question into a completely different question?  Does this qualify as a straw man argument?  LOL! You, Taxman, are a total douche.

However, these new questions I can certainly try to answer:

1. Do you like what Hillary believes in?  Do you like what Hillary stands for? (merged because they are really the same question)

So I compiled a list of some fairly vague positions:

1.  Education: Against No Child Left Behind. Position unknown on Common Core.
I agree, this one-size-fits all solution to underachieving schools fails to address the real problems students are facing.  Furthermore, it encourages teacher's to "teach the test" and not develop real world skills that a student may need, and stifles creativity.  

Immigration: President should waive deportation for some immigrants. Give undocumented residents a path to legal status.
I can certainly agree with this.

Marijuana: “Wait and see” on overall legalization.
I would go further, I would like to see all drugs legalized.

NSA: More transparency. Find the balance between security, privacy.
Sounds good?  Sure does.  But balance is very subjective.  Even so, Democrats have always had a better record on privacy issues than Republicans.

Obamacare: Keep it. Strengthen it. Tout it.
Obamacare is not perfect, but it is far better than what we had previously.  It could be made better by providing a public option.  And better yet, it should be the only option for everyone.  Then if people want more, they can buy private plans as well.

Social Issues: Abortion should be legal. So should same-sex marriage.
I agree!  Freedom of choice is very important.  

Taxes: Consider closing loopholes and cutting middle class taxes.
I would agree with this if we also raised taxes on the rich.  We really do need to raise taxes to pay our way.  

Israel: Work toward a two-state solution.
A two state solution is the only solution.  Currently the Arabs in the occupied territories out-number the Israelis.  If they are absorbed into a single state then Israel would cease being a Jewish state.  And keeping the status quo is also unacceptable.  Apartheid should never be acceptable.

Iran: Support framework for nuclear deal. Continue diplomacy efforts and some sanctions.
I agree 100%

Islamic State: No boots on the ground. Use regional troops.
This probably IS the best way to go about it.  Anytime we've sent in the military we've made things worse.


2. Do you like the character that Hillary demonstrates?

I like that Hillary did not flip out over the Monica Lewinsky thing.  An insanely jealous person could not have handled that.  I'm polyamorous and I suspect that Hillary is too.

I like that Hillary is not full of religious righteousness bullshit.  Her beliefs are her own and she does not try to impose them on others.

I admire that the Clintons have put substantial resources into the Clinton foundation in order to help others and solve problems that impact everyone.


So do I like Hillary as a candidate? Yes.  She is not perfect, but I believe she would do a good job.

[Lois]

Katie, you and Lois both have shown a pattern of being unable to address points and making ad hom attacks. If you would like to deny that, now would be the time... please deny or confirm openly and clearly.

You mean Ad Hominem attacks?  I don't think this means what you think it means.  We are not attacking you to discredit your ideas.  We are attacking your behavior.

[thetaxmancometh]

Lois, you are attacking me, not my behavior. You can tell because you say things like "You are an idiot with no heart" or "You, Taxman, are a total douche." Do you even understand the words that come out of your mouth? You complain about something AS YOU ARE DOING IT. Seriously, get some sort of a grip.

That isn't behavior you are referring to. When you address arguments, you are doing a good job in a debate. When you are addressing people, you are engaging in ad homs and not engaging in a debate.

That said, I will address your last post as it seems reasonable. Give me a few minutes. I may do quote-fu since it is a longer post

[thetaxmancometh]

So now you are trying to turn your question into a completely different question?

Not at all, you were just confused about my question, I believe intentionally. I asked in the first post "Who here actually likes Hillary?". When you were confused, I expressed what liking Hillary means... I.E. liking what she stands for. You seemed to interpret my first question as "Who here is or would like to be friends with Hillary?"... you started the strawman. Now, let's address your other points shall we?

1) I too am against No Child Left Behind/Common Core as education is a state issue, not a federal one. Hillary and I (and you) agree on that point but for different reasons. Hillary and (I assume) you take a top down view of education. Here are her stances:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/maureensullivan/2015/04/12/hillary-clinton-on-education-8-things-the-presidential-candidate-wants-you-to-know/

mainly against vouchers, for raising taxes to raise teacher pay/decrease class size, and for universal pre-K

2) Immigration: We certainly will differ here, I am all for legalization AFTER the border is secure. Not at the same time, not before the border is secure, but after it. Hillary is definitely for a path to citizenship for all non-felon illegal aliens but takes no stance on border security:

http://uspolitics.about.com/od/immigration/a/Hillary-Clintons-Postion-On-Illegal-Immigrants.htm



3) Drugs: I would like to see all drugs legalized as well, I am a libertarian. Treat drug usage so that it is restricted to adults and if a person commits a crime while under the influence then they get an extra penalty.  Hillary is unwilling to state where she stands:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/16/politics/hillary-clinton-marijuana/

4) NSA/Privacy. Hillary is unwilling to state where she stands:

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/02/hillary-clintons-evasive-position-on-nsa-spying/386024/

5) Obamacare: Hillary certainly supports Obamacare (not going to pull links for that, pretty clear)

6) Social Issues: Hillary, like Obama, has been against same-sex marriage for her entire political career, changing in 2013. I am glad that she changed (though marriage shouldn't be a function of government at all, imo), but it was a political choice. Abortion she is right in line with most people, she personally opposes it but thinks it should be legal. She is against late-term and partial birth abortions.

http://www.lifenews.com/2015/04/24/hillary-clinton-pushes-abortion-in-first-speech-as-candidate-too-many-women-denied-abortion/
http://uspolitics.about.com/od/gaymarriage/a/Hillary-Clintons-Position-On-Same-sex-Marriage.htm


Not sure why I am going down this list anymore, Clinton supports liberal democrat programs and is against conservative libertarian programs. That isn't a surprise.

The majority of people view Hillary as untrustworthy for a variety of reasons:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/17/politics/poll-2016-elections-hillary-clinton-trustworthy/

Clinton's early state honest and trustworthy numbers follow what a CNN/ORC poll released earlier this month found: 42% of Americans consider her honest and trustworthy, while 57% don't.

Hillary has shown that she has lied repeatedly about the email server, has shown no successful accomplishments as Sec. State, has openly claimed that the government can spend your money better then you can, has tried (and failed) to relate to the middle class, has refused to answer reporter's questions, has numerous Clinton Foundation scandals, ect.... and that isn't including the Bill Clinton whitehouse or earlier years :p

So you make it 2 people on this board who have stated that they would be happy with Hillary

[GEMINIGUY]

Taxman - or whoever the fuck hacked his account, because Taxman once upon a time was a decent human being - you're lucky Lois doesn't kick your ass off of KB since she owns it. You're lucky a site like KB exists so you can act like a dick and treat people like they're all wrong and you know everything. You don't. You're just a child having a temper tantrum, a spoiled shitty brat.
Show some respect to Lois as the owner here, and if you're a real man show some respect to MissBarbara and Katie. And don't bother with some half-assed reply, because I won't even be reading it. I'm done with this thread, you sucked all the fun out of it.