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Lois · 2520

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Offline Lois

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on: April 28, 2015, 08:36:43 AM
So if eye for an eye, life for a life, is Sharia/old testament law, what is killing for drug offenses? It's all just murder.

Indonesia set to execute prisoners convicted of drug crimes

On death row at Besi prison, Nusakambangan Island, Indonesia, an Australian prisoner married his fiancee on Monday. Another painted a haunting self-portrait, titled "The Second Last Day."

The two Australians, Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran, are due to be shot by firing squad in a mass execution likely to happen early Wednesday, along with four Nigerians, a Filipina, a Brazilian and an Indonesian, all convicted of drug crimes.

The process has raised questions over Indonesia’s legal system, after Muhammad Rifan, a former lawyer for the Australian prisoners, told Australian media Monday that the judges in the trial nine years ago demanded a bribe of $100,000 to sentence the men to less than 20 years in prison.

Some of the prisoners, including Mary Jane Veloso of the Philippines, have complained that they understood little of their court processes because they had poor interpretation and couldn’t defend themselves properly.

But political pressure in Indonesia to press ahead with the executions has been intense. President Joko Widodo, has declared the country is suffering from a drugs emergency, and in recent months has rejected clemency bids.

In January, Indonesia executed one Indonesian and five foreigners, including citizens of Vietnam, Malawi, Nigeria, Brazil and the Netherlands. Indonesian public opinion remains staunchly in favor of capital punishment.

United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon has urged Indonesia to not go ahead with the executions, and diplomats representing the condemned prisoners have lobbied for the Indonesian president to show mercy. Amnesty International also called on him to offer clemency to the prisoners.

Brazil and the Netherlands temporarily recalled their ambassadors from Indonesia in protest after January’s executions. Australian media reported Monday that the Australian government was likely to recall its ambassador once the next round of executions occurs.

The eight foreigners to be executed include Brazilian Rodrigo Gularte, whose lawyers and doctors state he suffers from schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. Indonesian law requires that people with mental illnesses be treated in a psychiatric institution, and not prosecuted. However, Indonesia’s attorney general has rejected claims that Gularte suffers from a mental illness, based on a police psychiatric report.

Veloso, a mother of two boys ages 6 and 12, is the only woman on the list for the next round of executions. She says she was duped into carrying heroin into Indonesia when she was offered a job as a domestic worker and supporters say she was a victim of human trafficking.

Her lawyer filed a request for a stay of execution Friday arguing that the court provided her English interpreters, despite the fact she speaks only Tagalog, so she was unable to understand proceedings or properly defend herself. However, a court Monday rejected her call for a judicial review.

“Those who recruited and manipulated Mary Jane should be pursued, prosecuted, and convicted - not Mary Jane, who is a desperate and vulnerable victim of human trafficking,” said the petition, which had gathered 68,000 signatures Monday.

Four Nigerians, Okwudili Oyatanze, Martin Anderson, Jamiu Owolabi Abashin and Sylvester Obiekwe Nwolise are also due to be executed.

The impending executions have also stirred anger in Australia, which has outlawed capital punishment, with lawyers and supporters of Chan and Sukumaran arguing that they have been rehabilitated in prison and deserve life imprisonment instead of execution.

The two, who were arrested in Bali in 2005, have admitted their roles in a drug smuggling ring that plotted to bring 18 pounds of heroin from Indonesia into Australia. Indonesian authorities were tipped off by Australian police about the plot.

Lawyers for Chan and Sukumaran Monday called for an investigation into the bribery allegations before the penalty is carried out.

“People should not be executed if the judgment came out from a defective process. The whole judgment must be annulled if it is proven the process was defective,” Todung Mulya Lubis, an Indonesian lawyer for the Australians, told journalists Monday. Lubis displayed Sukumaran’s painting, "The Second Last Day."

“We appeal to the attorney general, we appeal to the president, in the name of due process of law, in the name of fairness and justice, not to do the executions. This is not an act of desperado here. This is a demand for justice,” he said.

One of the self-portraits Sukumaran completed in recent days, dated April 25, shows a black hole in his chest.

Australian Foreign Minister Julie Bishop said the bribery allegation should be examined.


"These allegations are very serious. They call into question the integrity of the sentencing process and it’s a matter for Indonesia’s judicial commission to investigate these matters,” Bishop said. “This must be allowed to continue before any action is taken to prepare for executions. An execution is an irrevocable step and I believe that these hearings and these appeal processes should be concluded before any decision is taken.”

The prisoners were given 72 hours' notice Saturday of their executions. They are expected to be shot Wednesday after being taken from the prison to the execution site. Under Indonesian procedures, they are given the choice of whether to be blindfolded, and whether to sit, stand or kneel. They are tied to a pole and shot by firing squad.

Chan married his fiancee Febyanti Herewila in prison Monday. He and Sukumaran were transferred to the high-security Besi prison in March.

According to the government, 60 people are on death row in Indonesia, 34 of them foreigners convicted of narcotics crimes. Some analysts suggest the number of foreigners facing the death penalty in Indonesia may be higher.

http://www.latimes.com/world/asia/la-fg-indonesia-prisoners-20150427-story.html



Offline sheriff andy

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Reply #1 on: April 28, 2015, 01:34:35 PM
The fact that their system is corruptible does give me pause in these cases, the penalty for crime does not.

I've felt for a long time that if we are to combat drugs in this country, then we need to be serious about it.  Work on the causes yes, but be DAMN tough on the offenders as well.

Get caught giving/selling drugs to kids: Death penalty, no other sentence available.
Get caught smuggling drugs into the country: Death penalty, no other sentence available.

I see in the news often, some guy is caught bringing 300 lbs of pot into the country, get 2 yrs. Yet some kid gets caught with an ounce the second time and gets 10.




Offline GEMINIGUY

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Reply #2 on: April 28, 2015, 01:58:06 PM
You're taking the dealth penalty too far, that's sick! You should only get the death penalty if you are found guilty of murder. That's it.

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Offline MissBarbara

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Reply #3 on: April 28, 2015, 02:50:49 PM

I've felt for a long time that if we are to combat drugs in this country, then we need to be serious about it.  Work on the causes yes, but be DAMN tough on the offenders as well.


The problem, in a nutshell, with the so-called "War on Drugs," is that we've placed far too much emphasis on being "damn tough on the offenders," and hardly any effort into "working on the causes."

As long as that continues, the "War on Drugs" will be fruitless -- as fruitless as it has been for the past several decades.






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Offline sheriff andy

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Reply #4 on: April 28, 2015, 03:20:58 PM
You're taking the dealth penalty too far, that's sick! You should only get the death penalty if you are found guilty of murder. That's it.

Actually, those creating and feeding the drugs into our society are guilty  of murder. 
How many people are murdered each day due to the drug trade?
How many children die due to drive by shootings, drug deals gone bad or any of the other direct results of the drug trade?

How many people die just on overdoses?  If I gave you a vial of cyanide and said "take this, you'll love it" am I not guilty in your death?  How is the heron importer any different?

And yes MsB, I believe I did include that we do need to work on the root causes of these problems.  I just also feel that right now the drug smuggler knows that he can make a LOT of money, and if he gets caught he will pay with only a couple of years of prison.   IF the stakes are his life, he would far less tempted to cross that border.



Offline MissBarbara

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Reply #5 on: April 28, 2015, 03:33:26 PM

And yes MsB, I believe I did include that we do need to work on the root causes of these problems.  I just also feel that right now the drug smuggler knows that he can make a LOT of money, and if he gets caught he will pay with only a couple of years of prison. IF the stakes are his life, he would far less tempted to cross that border.


That's highly debatable. By comparison, the existence of capital punishment for murder does not seem to have caused a marked decrease in the murder rate.

To vastly (and, perhaps, unfairly) oversimplify, lessening the demand will lessen the supply.

Having said that, the chief problem with the war on drugs is that drug use is in no way deemed socially unacceptable. Yes, we tell our children to "just say no," but popular culture celebrates drug use. Most kids are smart enough to see through the hypocrisy.






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Offline anvil

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Reply #6 on: April 28, 2015, 04:05:26 PM
although Andy may be a bit extreme, I do support higher penalties for dealing drugs. this does include more severe punishment for more intense drugs including potentially the death penalty.

MissBarbara

" That's highly debatable. By comparison, the
existence of capital punishment for murder does not
seem to have caused a marked decrease in the
murder rate."

I hear this as an argument against capital punishment quite a bit.

however, to be fair, we have absolutely no statistics as to just what the murder rate would be if we did not have capital punishment.

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Offline Lois

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Reply #7 on: April 28, 2015, 04:34:33 PM
MANY MORE people die from over-the-counter and prescription drugs than die from illegal drugs.  Should we then also apply the death penalty to pharmaceutical companies?

And the war on drugs has just led to a lot of young people being locked up for life, destroying both lives and families.

I would rather just legalize all drugs.  Countries like Portugal, that have legalized all drugs, have seen addiction and use go way down, and crimes fall.

As for applying the death penalty for drug use, I agree with GG, that's just sick!
« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 04:37:02 PM by Lois »



Offline anvil

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Reply #8 on: April 28, 2015, 05:20:50 PM
legalization of all drugs is a good solution, but not likely to happen. Yay Colorado!

yes, too many lives have been ruined for dealing. perhaps a "catch and release" program for smaller catches, and a higher penalty for bigger fish. theoretically there are higher penalties for bigger fish, but the lil ones are so easy!

as for pharmaceutical companies, well um, aren't they about at the head of the "drug" food chain? and legal!

I'm not sure what's worse, selling legal within our medical system or selling illegally on the streets.

ruining your life on street drugs you are not a victim.
having your life ruined believing your doctor or the pharmaceutical companies is a different ball game.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 05:25:06 PM by anvil »

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Offline MissBarbara

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Reply #9 on: April 28, 2015, 05:48:15 PM

I hear this as an argument against capital punishment quite a bit.

however, to be fair, we have absolutely no statistics as to just what the murder rate would be if we did not have capital punishment.


BUT, we do have statistics comparing states with comparable demographics, one with capital punishment and one without, and those statistics bear out my assertion.





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Offline Elizabeth

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Reply #10 on: April 28, 2015, 07:31:58 PM
This entire discussion is interesting, we have gone from Indonesian Law to talking about our (USA) laws. I'm not sure what to say, other than MissB happens to be correct  "our" war on drugs is a dismal failure and has been for at least 30 years.
As for what people in here are saying all I can say is this "do not apply your standards (USA) to another country". Indonesia as well as several other countries have posted right at the Customs/Immigration hall that drugs offenses carry a death penalty, If you happen to be so foolish as to ignore that warning and then get caught
your recourse is severely limited (if at all). If the fact that the Justices in these cases were corrupt that may be a different matter, but proving that will be almost impossible (especially as Indonesian Justice's will be examining there own).
Undoubtedly those condemned will die for drug crimes, and just as undoubtedly people will still continue to smuggle drugs in to / out of Indonesia (completely ignoring the warning sign, and thinking that they will get away with it......until they get caught).
It's kind of like walking in a field and seeing a sign ahead of you saying "Minefield",
Now the question is do you or don't you?

Love,
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Offline Katiebee

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Reply #11 on: April 28, 2015, 07:45:26 PM
They should be given a fair trial,  then taken out and shot.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 07:51:48 PM by Katiebee »

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Offline phtlc

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Reply #12 on: April 28, 2015, 07:51:35 PM
The fact that their system is corruptible does give me pause in these cases, the penalty for crime does not.

I've felt for a long time that if we are to combat drugs in this country, then we need to be serious about it.  Work on the causes yes, but be DAMN tough on the offenders as well.

Get caught giving/selling drugs to kids: Death penalty, no other sentence available.
Get caught smuggling drugs into the country: Death penalty, no other sentence available.

I see in the news often, some guy is caught bringing 300 lbs of pot into the country, get 2 yrs. Yet some kid gets caught with an ounce the second time and gets 10.


Sorry I just can't agree. I am all for tough on crime within reason, but killing should only be done to protect life.

While you're waiting in vain for that apology, why don't you make yourself useful by getting on your knees and opening your mouth


Offline phtlc

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Reply #13 on: April 28, 2015, 07:54:12 PM
legalization of all drugs is a good solution,


I would probably have to disagree with that. Legalize pot yes, and decriminalise personal use possession of harder drugs, but complete legalization of all drugs will be a problem unless we make serious changes to how we deal with addicts who commit crimes (and not in a good way).

While you're waiting in vain for that apology, why don't you make yourself useful by getting on your knees and opening your mouth


Offline phtlc

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Reply #14 on: April 28, 2015, 07:57:31 PM
I would rather just legalize all drugs.  Countries like Portugal, that have legalized all drugs, have seen addiction and use go way down, and crimes fall.


It is my understanding that Portugal did not legalize all drugs but rather decriminalized personal use possession which is completely different from a total legalization of drugs. I happen to agree with decriminalization of personal use drugs and legalization of soft drugs (ie marijuana), but completely legalizing all drugs would be problematic.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 08:09:23 PM by phtlc »

While you're waiting in vain for that apology, why don't you make yourself useful by getting on your knees and opening your mouth


Offline phtlc

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Reply #15 on: April 28, 2015, 08:00:44 PM

I hear this as an argument against capital punishment quite a bit.

however, to be fair, we have absolutely no statistics as to just what the murder rate would be if we did not have capital punishment.


BUT, we do have statistics comparing states with comparable demographics, one with capital punishment and one without, and those statistics bear out my assertion.





I'm not disagreeing, but I would be curious to see the study just to ensure that there isn't any secondary reason why they have a lower crime rate, or that they didn't already have a low crime rate before abolishing capital punishment. Don't get me wrong, I'm opposed to capital punishment but not because of it's effect (or lack thereof) on crime rates. I just worked to long in a statistical research capacity to trust most studies I see (even if they support policies I agree with) because I saw first hand again and again that studies always conclusively prove what the researcher was setting out to prove...regardless of how many times we had to re-run the numbers.

While you're waiting in vain for that apology, why don't you make yourself useful by getting on your knees and opening your mouth


Offline phtlc

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Reply #16 on: April 28, 2015, 08:02:16 PM
It's kind of like walking in a field and seeing a sign ahead of you saying "Minefield",
Now the question is do you or don't you?


Agreed. I disagree with capital punishment, but people have know for decades that you don't want to get caught smuggling rugs in certain countries, so I don't cry my heart out for those who go and earn Darwin awards.

While you're waiting in vain for that apology, why don't you make yourself useful by getting on your knees and opening your mouth


Offline phtlc

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Reply #17 on: April 28, 2015, 08:29:13 PM

While you're waiting in vain for that apology, why don't you make yourself useful by getting on your knees and opening your mouth


Offline Elizabeth

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Reply #18 on: April 28, 2015, 08:58:28 PM
I would rather just legalize all drugs.  Countries like Portugal, that have legalized all drugs, have seen addiction and use go way down, and crimes fall.


It is my understanding that Portugal did not legalize all drugs but rather decriminalized personal use possession which is completely different from a total legalization of drugs. I happen to agree with decriminalization of personal use drugs and legalization of soft drugs (ie marijuana), but completely legalizing all drugs would be problematic.

Could you imagine the chaos we would create if Heroin and Cocaine were legal.
Just saying..."Not Good".
Love,
Liz



Offline anvil

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Reply #19 on: April 28, 2015, 09:34:17 PM
Liz, your statement is right on!

Phtlc,, yours as well.

Missbarb, Phtlc best me to it.  the only statistics that are correct are those that support my views, all others are Damn lies!  ;)

however a generic statement like you made is in fact only your unsupported opinion,, without at least a footnote or so for support.

I understand the concept of legalizing all drugs from an altruistic approach. however, I can't see it working in all reality.

Capital punishment,,,  its elimination would have no affect on crimes of passion.

however, for those contemplating a crime whose punishment is death, well you would be hard pressed to convince me it deters a fair amount of people.  The rest, probably not.

isn't it worth having on the books even if it keeps one person from taking another life?

after all, we do live in a time where that concept is valid in many other instances.

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