Who would be for a reinstatement of ostracism?

[Bexy]

[Athos_131]

It would be abused horribly.  The propaganda slung around here is proof of that.

[Bexy]

It would be abused horribly.  The propaganda slung around here is proof of that.

Well, that's no different from the propaganda for voting someone IN to the government then. But perhaps it could solve the problem of the same people staying in congress?

[Bexy]

So, quite basically, democracy doesn't work?

[MissBarbara]

So, quite basically, democracy doesn't work?

Well, Athenian democracy certainly didn't work.

And that point was kept in the forefront of the minds those who outlined our unique (historically speaking) form of government in the framing of our Constitution. They looked to the examples of Athens and Holland and the Swiss Cantons, and deliberately chose to reject those forms of democracy.

Besides, as has been widely pointed out, our country is not a democracy.

[Bexy]

The thing about democracy is that it isn't intended to ensure the people are ruled by the best possible people, but that they have the freedom to select their own government. As George Bernard Shaw put it:

Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.

Well, that sure explains why I don't like it. To me it feels a bit like letting toddlers vote about what's best for them. Instead of letting a responsible mom or dad tell them what's best for them. I don't know the situation in Ireland, but in my country it's pretty appalling. Only 30% of the people are actually productive. The rest either work for the government (which is 2/3rds too big) or are collecting (welfare, ill, pensioners, children). Even if these 30% of people all vote for one party that defends their interests, they're still never getting a say in things, because all the others are voting for the other party. I'm convinced most people don't have a problem paying for the sick, the young and the elderly, but with a government that is way too big and corrupt, democracy sure isn't working. The 'toddler' civil servants will keep voting to keep their privileged positions till the entire system will simply collapse.

[MissBarbara]

The thing about democracy is that it isn't intended to ensure the people are ruled by the best possible people, but that they have the freedom to select their own government. As George Bernard Shaw put it:

Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.

Well, that sure explains why I don't like it. To me it feels a bit like letting toddlers vote about what's best for them. Instead of letting a responsible mom or dad tell them what's best for them. I don't know the situation in Ireland, but in my country it's pretty appalling. Only 30% of the people are actually productive. The rest either work for the government (which is 2/3rds too big) or are collecting (welfare, ill, pensioners, children). Even if these 30% of people all vote for one party that defends their interests, they're still never getting a say in things, because all the others are voting for the other party. I'm convinced most people don't have a problem paying for the sick, the young and the elderly, but with a government that is way too big and corrupt, democracy sure isn't working. The 'toddler' civil servants will keep voting to keep their privileged positions till the entire system will simply collapse.

Or, until campaign financing is reformed, and big money is completely removed from the process.

Then -- and only then -- will democracy in America flourish as it was meant to.

[watcher1]

Or, until campaign financing is reformed, and big money is completely removed from the process.

Then -- and only then -- will democracy in America flourish as it was meant to.

My thoughts exactly. The Supreme Court is not helping either.

[Gina Marie]

Besides, as has been widely pointed out, our country is not a democracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligarchy

[KinkyKacey]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligarchy

While I agree on the thought of Oligarchy.. (I've Considered this isn't the USA anymore.. But UCA -United Corporations of America) but the other half makes me think there's too much other input..turning this country into a Theocracy just as much. Similar to Taliban running things behind the "official government" in mid-east. But that's probably a thought for a different thread.

Either way..they're succeeding at keeping the people dumb, pliable, and with no way to reach the heights of success as those on the boards of these glorious companies..er "people".. :/ meanwhile, they continue to leech away the $ the low/middle class has to add to their coffers.

They better watch out though...
$ can be considered the lifeblood or "energy system" of the country sustaining all parts of the body (the people).
Stop the flow and cycle of that 'blood' and you die. Simple as that.

"The Spice Must Flow..." (Heh...sorry been rereading Dune )

Their current ways they want to fix the "body" of the USorC of A is by eliminating undesirables.. Or essentially amputation (to continue the metaphor).
Damaging it beyond repair if not careful. You don't cut off an arm because you may have scratched it, or it doesn't look as good as the other arm...
But they're sure trying hard to do that now.

(Thus ends my one rare 1408 post for the year. Time for bed..while I still have one. This next monthly round of expenses from my rent increases, my utility increases, and transportation cost increases starting in Oct will outstrip any gains from a raise I will get in April by a factor of ~4 (if they give any this year as my loving "person" of an employer has stripped my work title down to meaningless drivel not suited for any career just to save themselves more of that $ and not pay us what's due us four our true work).

Guess you can tell I'm not a fan of that Citizens United ruling... Or Hobby Lobby... Or... :/

[phtlc]

The question I would be asking is how someone rose to a position where they could be most destructive without having been voted out much earlier. Voters have some responsibility to pay attention and get the bad apples out before they do any serious harm. The problem however (in Canada at least) is ignorance and apathy amongst the average voter.

[Bexy]

The question  I would be asking is how someone rose to a position where they could be most destructive without having been voted out much earlier. Voters have some responsibility to pay attention and get the bad apples out before they do any serious harm. The problem however (in Canada at least) is ignorance and apathy amongst the average voter.

That argument simply holds no ground in my country. We are legally obliged to vote, so everybody votes and not for someone they don't deem worthy. The problem is that even if a politician does not get 'preference votes', after the election the party can still put him in that seat if they so decide. One of our socialist ministers was caught on ordering bribery money to be burned to conceal its existence. His 'punishment' was 'being sent off to Oxford for an education'. The majority of people did not vote for him again yet he was still allowed to come back by his party and take a prominent seat. I would ostracise the shit out of that guy, alas our 'democracy' is a self-sustaining system for parasites.

[TinyDancer]

Bexy, you state that citizens in your country are legally required to vote.  Just curious as to what happens if you don't?

[Bexy]

Bexy, you state that citizens in your country are legally required to vote.  Just curious as to what happens if you don't?

You get fined.

EDIT: and that is why we write stuff like this on the ballots:

[watcher1]

Either way..they're succeeding at keeping the people dumb, pliable, and with no way to reach the heights of success as those on the boards of these glorious companies..er "people".. :/ meanwhile, they continue to leech away the $ the low/middle class has to add to their coffers.

That has worked well in Russia and China for years.  Good post, Leo.  Bummer about costs outpacing your raise. I bet the CEOs received a nice raise. 

[redhatlover]

"DEMOCRACY ONLY WORKS UNTIL THE MASSES FIND THAT THEY CAN VOTE FOR BREAD AND CIRCUSES."  I know I don't have the quote exactly right (feel free to correct), but an ancient Roman said that.  It still holds true today.  Just look at the US.

[joan1984]

Good thing the U.S. is a Republic, not a Democracy. And too true, all the more reason for returning to our founding principles, sooner rather than later. Article 5 points the way for States to reclaim Constitutional meaning.

"DEMOCRACY ONLY WORKS UNTIL THE MASSES FIND THAT THEY CAN VOTE FOR BREAD AND CIRCUSES."  I know I don't have the quote exactly right (feel free to correct), but an ancient Roman said that.  It still holds true today.  Just look at the US.

[MissBarbara]

The question I would be asking is how someone rose to a position where they could be most destructive without having been voted out much earlier. Voters have some responsibility to pay attention and get the bad apples out before they do any serious harm. The problem however (in Canada at least) is ignorance and apathy amongst the average voter.

I couldn't agree more, and about both ignorance and apathy.

[Yes, I'm aware you're going to cite that and say "I get that a lot..."]

Second only to out-of-control campaign funding, voter apathy is the other major reason why the political system in the U.S. is failing its citizens.

A shockingly low percentage of eligible voters actually vote (50% is considered a very high turnout), and among those who do vote, I'd suspect a fairly low number make informed choices for each race.

A lot of people like to whine about things, and make bold posts (or reblogs) on Facebook or Twitter, but the shockingly low number of citizens who are actively involved and making informed choices dims any hope of effective change going forward.

P.S. Getting back on topic, in the U.S. we already have ways to ostracize ineffective politicians. They're called "elections."

[redhatlover]

A shockingly low percentage of eligible voters actually vote (50% is considered a very high turnout), and among those who do vote, I'd suspect a fairly low number make informed choices for each race.
[/b]

You can say that again!

[Bexy]

I couldn't agree more, and about both ignorance and apathy.

[Yes, I'm aware you're going to cite that and say "I get that a lot..."]

Second only to out-of-control campaign funding, voter apathy is the other major reason why the political system in the U.S. is failing its citizens.

A shockingly low percentage of eligible voters actually vote (50% is considered a very high turnout), and among those who do vote, I'd suspect a fairly low number make informed choices for each race.

A lot of people like to whine about things, and make bold posts (or reblogs) on Facebook or Twitter, but the shockingly low number of citizens who are actively involved and making informed choices dims any hope of effective change going forward.

P.S. Getting back on topic, in the U.S. we already have ways to ostracize ineffective politicians. They're called "elections."

The 'apathy' card can not be drawn in my country due to mandatory voting. Elections are not the same as the ostracism process in my opinion. Even if people don't vote for a politician he can still get some type of job in the government in my country. Ostracism would make sure he didn't get a government job for the next 10 years and would be completely excluded.