"Gray Rape"

[Lois]

I think there's general confusion here with regards to what some people are saying about responsibility.  

Women should be on their guard and not drink too much when NOT partying with close friends.  We need to remember that there are evil people around looking for victims.  Women have a responsibility not to be an easy target for predators and to protect ourselves.

The clothes women wear have nothing to do with anything!  There has never been a proven correlation between how women dress and the incidence of rape.  This is just used by some men to confuse the issue.  Predators look for easy victims and that all there is to it.

[MissBarbara]

I can talk until i'm blue in the face, but here's what it is: If you can't see this from the male perspective you won't get what i'm trying to say.
Alternately, being a male i'll have a problem fully understanding the female perspective.
You have to understand i'm seeking knowledge here. As a male who would never rape a woman i'm hurt by a lot of things said against males. I'm also hurt that you misunderstand my words. I'm not doing any woman-hating or playing any blame games and saying women are guilty, i'm saying [try to] look at it from both sides, the male perspective and the female perspective. Maybe then you'll understand why i'm feeling a little stung here.
This was my last post on this subject. I'm out of it from here on in.

GG, I've been trying very hard to explain things calmly. I believe you when you say, "I'm seeking knowledge here," and that is the spirit with which I've read your posts.

I do not, nor have I ever, believed that you would even consider raping a woman, nor doing anything improper with a woman. Nor do I think you're a "woman hater."

And if you think I'm attacking you, read my response to snowm above. THAT'S me attacking someone.

My question above was an honest one -- my attempt at "seeking knowledge here." And you didn't answer it. So I'll ask again: What, in your opinion, are a woman's responsibilities here? You mentioned "the male perspective" several times. What is the male perspective? I'm clearly missing your point. I would truly appreciate if you would explain it to me.

[MissBarbara]

I think there's general confusion here with regards to what some people are saying about responsibility.  

Women should be on their guard and not drink too much when NOT partying with close friends.  We need to remember that there are evil people around looking for victims. Women have a responsibility not to be an easy target for predators and to protect ourselves.

The clothes women wear have nothing to do with anything!  There has never been a proven correlation between how women dress and the incidence of rape.  This is just used by some men to confuse the issue.  Predators look for easy victims and that all there is to it.

I would add one thing to this list. And I do so in a sincere effort to understand -- and perhaps even empathize with -- "the male perspective."

A present theme in both the article I cited and in many other discussions of this topic is that, due to the fact that women have become more sexually adventurous and sexually forthright, men -- like the ESPN guy in the article -- say that they are receiving "mixed signals" from women.

Women revert to the retrospective fallback, "No Means No!" But, perhaps, women have a responsibility to be much clearer in stating our intentions. In other words, perhaps women have to say the actual word "No!" clearly and unmistakabably. Perhaps women are not clear enough in outlining the extent to which they wish the given encounter to proceed. And, perhaps, women have to make a greater effort to be perfectly clear, so that no genuine uncertainty exists in the man's mind.   

Believe me, I am not arguing that "mixed signals" means "yes," or that women should be blamed -- or men excused -- when this occurs. But GG, snowm, and others have complained that women never try to understand "the male perspective." And this is my sincere attempt to understand it.

[MissBarbara]

I think there's general confusion here with regards to what some people are saying about responsibility.  

Women should be on their guard and not drink too much when NOT partying with close friends.  We need to remember that there are evil people around looking for victims. Women have a responsibility not to be an easy target for predators and to protect ourselves.

The clothes women wear have nothing to do with anything!  There has never been a proven correlation between how women dress and the incidence of rape.  This is just used by some men to confuse the issue.  Predators look for easy victims and that all there is to it.

I would add one thing to this list. And I do so in a sincere effort to understand -- and perhaps even empathize with -- "the male perspective."

A present theme in both the article I cited and in many other discussions of this topic is that, due to the fact that women have become more sexually adventurous and sexually forthright, men -- like the ESPN guy in the article -- say that they are receiving "mixed signals" from women.

Women revert to the retrospective fallback, "No Means No!" But, perhaps, women have a responsibility to be much clearer in stating our intentions. In other words, perhaps women have to say the actual word "No!" clearly and unmistakabably. Perhaps women are not clear enough in outlining the extent to which they wish the given encounter to proceed. And, perhaps, women have to make a greater effort to be perfectly clear, so that no genuine uncertainty exists in the man's mind.   

Believe me, I am not arguing that "mixed signals" means "yes," or that women should be blamed -- or men excused -- when this occurs. But GG, snowm, and others have complained that women never try to understand "the male perspective." And this is my sincere attempt to understand it.

You're being overly generous.
 

Yes I am. And deliberately so.

Any decent guy would at least ask if the girl is sure if there's any uncertainty about it on his part.

Of course. And I'd say the vast majority of guys would ask first, and then act in accordance with her wishes. I, and many others who've responded in this thread, have granted that. I, in fact, specifically stated it. And I believe it.

And this explains my frustration -- perhaps my simple lack of understanding -- of why some guys feel compelled to jump into this thread and accuse women of stereotyping all men as rapists, or of not understanding "the male perspective."

[Elizabeth]

Oh wait!!!!
Now you are talking about "Flirting".

Love,
Liz

[Lois]

Maybe I should start a new thread, but considering some of the posts here I thought this article appropriate.

Five ways that “staying safe” costs women
How trying to avoid sexual assault costs women money, time, and energy
BY SORAYA CHEMALY

Men, have you every made fun of girls and women you know for going to the bathroom together? This habit is often high on the list of “girl” things men claim not to fathom.

But here’s a simple and easy fact that can dispel a lot of confusion: Women regularly take steps to avoid the threat of rape, even if we don’t explicitly describe them as such.  We train girls early to do things in groups — yes, including going to the bathroom — so that they aren’t vulnerable to sexual assault.

Ask yourselves, men, do you feel safe on your neighborhood streets? Do you choose where and when you exercise or shop or commute carefully?  Do you have parking strategies, like not parking near vans? Do you change several times before deciding on certain clothes,  even though you like them? Do you use your keys as a weapon or take other similar measures? Have you considered specialized fighting techniques?

These questions will be familiar to most women, but they don’t really address the most common type of sexual assault: that perpetrated by an acquaintance. Some women are indeed assaulted by strangers, but almost 75% of rapists are known to their victims.

 The habits we teach girls for avoiding rape reinforce misleading and ultimately dangerous ideas about strangers in alleys. If “don’t get raped” lessons were genuinely meant to help people assess risk and avoid assault, we’d teach girls and boys (because yes, boys and men can be victims of sexual violence too).  Instead, these rules reinforce a gender hierarchy dependent on girls being vulnerable and boys being invincible.

Teaching girls to constantly modify their behavior in order to avoid stranger rape is a form of social control.  And telling girls and women it’s their responsibility to avoid rape doesn’t stop rape, it just perpetuates rape culture.

More here:  http://www.salon.com/2013/08/12/five_ways_that_staying_safe_costs_women/

[Gina Marie]

^^^^

WOO!

[Lois]

You have some good points there, all of which point out the contradictions women must face in their everyday lives.

[Gina Marie]

You have some good points there, all of which point out the contradictions women must face in their everyday lives.

No. All contradictions people must face in their everyday lives. Women are not the only victims or even the only victims of rape. Rape is not something that a man does to a woman, it is something done by a rapist to a victim. Rape is not a gender issue and people need to stop treating it as such.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_gender

[Gina Marie]

I'm not debating the statistics.

Nor was I, GB, I simply provided the link to the wiki article. Besides, we all know Wiki is open source, so it can be wrong. 

[Katiebee]

How can it be wrong? It's on the Internet?