Chicago: "bullet-scarred"

[MissBarbara]

I honestly think the problem comes from movies where the hero uses violence as a solution to all problems.  The law and police rarely are seen as a way to obtain justice, but private vengeance is.

Hollywood uses violence to sell movies because sex and nudity gets an "R" rating.  I say get rid of the violence and bring back the sex.

TV doesn't make people violent any more than rap music turns people into gang bangers. I'd be more inclined to say it is some function of the examples set immediately around them and how they respond to those examples.

While violence on TV may not MAKE people violent, the pervasiveness of violence on TV (and in movies, video games, songs, etc.) make violent responses seem acceptable, even appropriate. If this is what you mean by "the examples set immediately around them," then I agree.




 

[Lois]

That is exactly my point Miss Barbara.  Thank you.

[MissBarbara]

That is exactly my point Miss Barbara.  Thank you.

Not only was it your point, but it led me to think about this aspect of the "debate" further. Which is ALWAYS a good thing.

So, thank you back!

[watcher1]

TV doesn't make people violent any more than rap music turns people into gang bangers. I'd be more inclined to say it is some function of the examples set immediately around them and how they respond to those examples.

There have been more then a few rappers who have died violent deaths.  I believe some begin to believe in the words they rap to and when fantasy takes over, then you will have big problems. 

[phtlc]

TV doesn't make people violent any more than rap music turns people into gang bangers. I'd be more inclined to say it is some function of the examples set immediately around them and how they respond to those examples.

There have been more then a few rappers who have died violent deaths.  I believe some begin to believe in the words they rap to and when fantasy takes over, then you will have big problems. 

I don't know enough about these high profile rap deaths to comment one way or the other, but were these cases of otherwise decent fellows who went bad after taking a liking to rap, or were these guys who had been making poor life choices all along?

[Lois]

It is not about liking rap, it is about culture.  When you start hanging out with people with a whole different set of norms, it is very common for a person to embrace these norms as their own.  Not all rap artists are into the "gangsta" thing, but those that do tend to have troubles based on the norms of that culture.

That's why lots of rock artists end up using pot, etc.  It is the norm for that culture.

[Lois]

Thank you for the info about gangsta rap GB.  Also thank you for your other thoughts on the topic, you make some good points.

However, I do think that the "violence solves problems" theme that I've seen in many American movies of late are both a symptom and a reinforcement of a trend that has been growing in American culture for some time.  Americans seem to distrust their government, and along with it, the rule of law on which it is based.  I fear that this will all lead to a country that is ungovernable.

[watcher1]

However, I do think that the "violence solves problems" theme that I've seen in many American movies of late are both a symptom and a reinforcement of a trend that has been growing in American culture for some time.  Americans seem to distrust their government, and along with it, the rule of law on which it is based.  I fear that this will all lead to a country that is ungovernable.

Yet movies with a lot of violence will usually receive more PG-13 ratings then if there was nudity in the movie.  Seems the raters are still hung up on sex but not violence.

[GEMINIGUY]

That's what Lois has been saying all along. She said throw out the violence and bring back the sex and nudity.

[watcher1]

That's what Lois has been saying all along. She said throw out the violence and bring back the sex and nudity.

If Lois ran for president, I would work on her campaign.  Just think of the benefits...

[Lois]

Yep, I'd make sure porn was not prosecuted as well.

[joan1984]

After another violent
weekend, Chicago police
say 'everyone' needs to
step up and help

Chicago shootings: July 15-17, 2016
Chicago Tribune staff

It was raining hard, and Donre Domio at first thought the loud bangs were thunder.

Then blue and red lights flooded her block in Austin as police and paramedics pulled up close to midnight Sunday.  Two men had been shot at a house party in the 5000 block of West Jackson Boulevard, the end of another violent weekend in Chicago that saw seven people killed and at least 52 wounded.

The toll brings the number of people shot in Chicago this year to nearly 2,200.  At least 329 of them have been killed, about 100 more than this time last year.

The spike prompted the Chicago Police Department to form a new summer patrol unit last month to tamp down violence during months when shootings historically rise.  First Deputy Superintendent John Escalante said commanders were meeting Monday "coming up with what else we can do for this week."

"We added resources each day," Escalante told reporters at police headquarters. "Those commanders are here right now, meeting with the chief of patrol."

But he said "the courts, our state legislators, other community activists" need to step up and help the police "hold people accountable for their gun violence."

He cited the killing of Raygene Jackson, 38, who was shot around 4:45 a.m. Sunday in the 4500 block of West Maypole Street.

"I don't mean to victimize this victim any further, this man lost his life," Escalante said. "But our frustration is, in 1995 he was sentenced to 46 years in the Illinois Department of Corrections for a murder. In 1995. He was paroled last year. How and why he's on the street, I don't know.

"But if he was still serving his sentence, he wouldn't be a murder victim right now," he said.

 Chicago cop addresses police killings in Baton Rouge
First Deputy Superintendent John Escalante talks July 18, 2016, about the shooting in Baton Rouge, La., that left three police officers dead and three others injured.
Escalante also mentioned a 20-year-old man who was killed in a double shooting in Austin shortly before 8 p.m.

Carlos Harding and another 20-year-old man were found shot inside a black SUV in the 100 block of North Lavergne Avenue.  Harding suffered a gunshot wound to the head and was taken to Stroger Hospital, where he was pronounced dead, police said. The other man was shot in the leg and was stabilized at Stroger, Quaid said.

Escalante noted that Harding had a record of 61 arrests.  "Sixty-one arrests at the age of 20," he said. "That's the frustration we deal with. He has, and I believe it is correct but we'll double check, he has 20 convictions. Now granted, most of them are low-level misdemeanors but he has 20 convictions at the age of 20 years old.

"So no matter what plans and strategies we put in place -- and I do believe we put good plans and strategies in place each week and each weekend -- until we get everyone else, whether it's the courts, our state legislators, other community activists, to step up with us and hold people accountable for their gun violence, we're going to continue to see it, unfortunately," he said. "And unfortunately, it may impact the same communities no matter what we try to do."

Harding was killed a little more than a mile north of the double shooting at the house party, which occurred shortly before midnight Sunday. An 18-year-old was shot in the head and another man, 33, was shot in the chest and the right leg, and was stabilized at Stroger Hospital, police said.

The 18-year-old was pronounced dead on the scene.  Officers and detectives huddled around his body in a grassy area in front of a two-story home on the northern side of Jackson.  Officers cordoned off about half a block of Jackson between Lavergne and Leamington avenues.

Donre Domio said she was inside a home on the block when her teenage son yelled, "They’re shooting. They’re shooting."

She said the block, where her mother had lived for at least four decades, has been generally quiet.

About three hours after the shooting, a man in a white T-shirt and jeans walked away from the crime scene.  He said the 18-year-old was his brother.

The man put his hands on the back of his head and leaned on the building of Christ the King Jesuit College Preparatory School at Jackson and Leamington. A woman in gray sweater and pants hugged him.

Police said no one was in custody.

The most violent stretch of the weekend was late Saturday through early Sunday when at least 22 people were shot, three of them fatally, including 15-year-old Travon D. Smith.

Travon was shot in the Kenwood neighborhood around 12:50 a.m. Sunday as he walked with a 16-year-old boy in the 4700 block of South Ellis Avenue, police said. A red van pulled up, and someone inside fired shots.  Travon dropped to the ground and was pronounced dead at the scene, police said.

Three more people were killed and 15 others were wounded Sunday morning through the night, according to police. A man was killed and 18 others were wounded between 5 p.m. Friday and 5 a.m. Saturday.

Saturday evening, a 40-year-old man was shot by police in the West Garfield Park neighborhood during a raid on a business suspected of storing illegal weapons, authorities said.

Saturday evening, a 40-year-old man was shot by police in the West Garfield Park neighborhood during a raid on a business suspected of storing illegal weapons, authorities said.

"In addition to the weapon that was recovered off the suspect we shot, five more weapons were recovered in that business ... including a 9mm semiautomatic handgun that had a laser and a scope on it and a Intratec 9, basically it's a machine gun," Escalante said.

"That's what our officers deal with, that's their frustration," he said. "They're out there, they're working, but we need everybody else to help us out and to hold these repeat offenders accountable so we can bring the level of violence down."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-chicago-weekend-shootings-20160718-story.html

[Lois]

So what are you doing about the gun and gang violence Joan?  I know it's a big problem, but you must have some ideas.

https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20151201/downtown/chicagoans-actually-do-protest-violence-their-communities-all-time

[joan1984]

   The solution lies in law enforcement, in my opinion. The issue is criminals, and not the means they use to maim and kill other criminals and passers by. Removal from society of a criminal, after a legal trial, has the purpose of protecting society in general from the criminal's influence and activities.

   The duration of the sentence "should" suffice to rehabilitate that criminal, and allow for safe (not for him, or her, but for society) release after 'doing the time'. Unfortunately, the system is bloated with extreme labor and upkeep costs and results as to rehabilitation vary greatly. The idea of early release of criminals, prior to that individual prisoner being rehabilitated, and suitable to live in society without being a threat to his/her neighbors or others, needs to be maintained, and if necessary, the prisoner kept out of society until such status can be assured.

   Chicago is but one example, and it is politically incorrect to point it out due to 'our dear leader' being an agitator there prior to his being s/elected for higher office. Democrats need to figure out what to do about killings and maiming of citizens in that fine city, and Chicago should be in the lead of every "news" report, until Democrats lose office in that city, or fix it's problems, in my opinion.

   More people have been shot in Chicago than Americans were killed in Iraq.
We never cease to hear about our losses of troops in Iraq, and other wars, and an equal amount of resolve needs to be brought to bear, to eliminate the dens of criminal behavior in our cities... Chicago is a great place to start...

   For what it is worth, and ZIKA not withstanding, RIO has its troubles with gangs, people being killed, wounded and maimed as well, and this is largely ignored as well... I mention RIO, as it was on contention with Chicago when Barack Obama was rooting for his adopted hometown shortly after his election.

The headlines for Olympic goers would not be so different, either town it seems.

All lives matter.

So what are you doing about the gun and gang violence Joan?  I know it's a big problem, but you must have some ideas.

https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20151201/downtown/chicagoans-actually-do-protest-violence-their-communities-all-time

[MissBarbara]

   The solution lies in law enforcement, in my opinion. The issue is criminals, and not the means they use to maim and kill other criminals and passers by. Removal from society of a criminal, after a legal trial, has the purpose of protecting society in general from the criminal's influence and activities.

   The duration of the sentence "should" suffice to rehabilitate that criminal, and allow for safe (not for him, or her, but for society) release after 'doing the time'. Unfortunately, the system is bloated with extreme labor and upkeep costs and results as to rehabilitation vary greatly. The idea of early release of criminals, prior to that individual prisoner being rehabilitated, and suitable to live in society without being a threat to his/her neighbors or others, needs to be maintained, and if necessary, the prisoner kept out of society until such status can be assured.

   Chicago is but one example, and it is politically incorrect to point it out due to 'our dear leader' being an agitator there prior to his being s/elected for higher office. Democrats need to figure out what to do about killings and maiming of citizens in that fine city, and Chicago should be in the lead of every "news" report, until Democrats lose office in that city, or fix it's problems, in my opinion.

   More people have been shot in Chicago than Americans were killed in Iraq.
We never cease to hear about our losses of troops in Iraq, and other wars, and an equal amount of resolve needs to be brought to bear, to eliminate the dens of criminal behavior in our cities... Chicago is a great place to start...

   For what it is worth, and ZIKA not withstanding, RIO has its troubles with gangs, people being killed, wounded and maimed as well, and this is largely ignored as well... I mention RIO, as it was on contention with Chicago when Barack Obama was rooting for his adopted hometown shortly after his election.

The headlines for Olympic goers would not be so different, either town it seems.

All lives matter.

Wait: Obama is responsible for the ZIKA virus?

Who knew?

[watcher1]

The Chicago Police have identified some 85 hard core criminals that are gang members and that contribute to over 75% of all the shootings. It is the easy availability of illegal guns that have the police frustrated.  The CPD are taking illegal guns off the street at the rate of one an hour, more then NYC or LA police departments.  And another beef by the CPD is that many judges are very lax when giving out sentences for felons that use guns in committing a crime.

[Lois]

LA Rampart division and the Oakland police took care of their gangs.  Unfortunately it was done illegally.  They would stop known gang members and plant evidence on them and then find it.  Since most were on parole, they went right back to the slammer.

One of the problems is that when a person is released, they go right back to the community where they learned their life of crime. Further, once in a gang you can't leave or they kill you and your family.

One way to deal with this is to relocate them elsewhere, preferably another state in a place where gangs are not active, and ban them forever from visiting their old "turf".

[IdleBoast]

 The issue is criminals, and not the means they use to maim and kill other criminals and passers by.

...except that all the evidence shows that sensible stops them being criminals in the first place, or ensures that the severity of their crimes is dramatically restricted.

If you don't have a gun, injuries are restricted to people & things within arm's reach, rather than across the street, through the wall or in the next building.

[joan1984]

Let me note, please, it is not legal anywhere in the U.S. for a criminal to have a firearm. Illegal totally, let alone to use such an item in the commission of a crime. It is legal for American Citizens to own and bear firearms, and that is what you wish to change. Think about that, please.

It is the criminal who needs to be removed from the situation. Period.

 The issue is criminals, and not the means they use to maim and kill other criminals and passers by.

...except that all the evidence shows that sensible stops them being criminals in the first place, or ensures that the severity of their crimes is dramatically restricted.

If you don't have a gun, injuries are restricted to people & things within arm's reach, rather than across the street, through the wall or in the next building.

[IdleBoast]

Let me note, please, it is not legal anywhere in the U.S. for a criminal to have a firearm. Illegal totally, let alone to use such an item in the commission of a crime. It is legal for American Citizens to own and bear firearms, and that is what you wish to change. Think about that, please.

It is the criminal who needs to be removed from the situation. Period.

 The issue is criminals, and not the means they use to maim and kill other criminals and passers by.

...except that all the evidence shows that sensible stops them being criminals in the first place, or ensures that the severity of their crimes is dramatically restricted.

If you don't have a gun, injuries are restricted to people & things within arm's reach, rather than across the street, through the wall or in the next building.

Your argument only works if criminals break all the laws except the gun ownership ones, and nobody who legitimately owns a gun is capable of committing a crime.  Any assertion that criminality causes gun-deaths is patently false, since the majority of gun-deaths involve legally-held firearms, and people who, until the moment of discharge, were not criminals, or even remained non-criminals after the event (such as the toddlers who, annually, shoot more Americans than terrorists do).

Now, pay attention, please:

1. I have never said I am against gun ownership, I am for gun control.

2. Gun control means that potential (and existing) gun owners have to be subject to proper background checks (most never are), including a basic psychological assessment (eg no guns for people with violent or abusive tendencies, issues with anger, clinical depression or addiction), and must be properly trained (ie examined and certified) in the handling, use and storage of firearms before a firearm is acquired.  The nature of the held weapons must also be controlled (as discussed elsewhere). 

Proper gun control both keeps guns out of the hands of criminals (properly stored guns are far less likely to be stolen), and prevents law-abiding citizens from [accidentally] becoming criminals.

3. Your only argument for the mass, relatively-unrestricted ownership of firearms is the Second Amendment, a document that has not been relevant since independent America first established standing armed forces, and the basic wording of which ("as part of a well-ordered militia") you, and most other NRA-style gun advocates blatantly ignore.