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NRA's answer: armed guards in schools

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Offline Grm

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Reply #120 on: January 01, 2013, 03:09:44 PM



Athos131

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Reply #121 on: January 01, 2013, 03:39:24 PM
Columbine's guards were under instructions not to fire their weapons, to wait for SWAT.
Those rules of engagement have been changed, found deadly faulty, in studies of that shooing, which happened in the middle of the Joe Biden 1994 to 2004 useless AWB, btw.


Columbine, co had an armed guard. Very effective.
I maintain that you will NOT have effective guards. Most will not be combat ready. Most will endanger the people they are supposed to be guarding if they engage a shooter. Most won't be able to hit a target with their handgun, reliably, more than 50% of the time. Lots of rounds fired, not many hits on the intended target.

Look at the records of police firefights. Hundreds of rounds fired, and more civilian casualties. The intended targets aren't hit. This is the reason why you don't want rent-a-cops guarding schools. You also don't necessarily want real cops engaging in firefights in a school for the same reason. Most police aren't good shots, they are barely acceptable shots.

Ask any respectable law enforcement officer and they will tell you drawing, much less firing their weapon is a last resort, and not something to be proud of.



Offline horny guy

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Reply #122 on: January 01, 2013, 03:50:33 PM
How true Athos... i wouldn't limit that truth to just law enforcement people though.



Offline joan1984

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Reply #123 on: January 01, 2013, 05:10:39 PM
The idea is deterrence, not a gunfight, when making public that those in a building may be or are armed. To stop the incident, or shorten the incident. If you have another way to create deterrence, and to stop or shorten an incident, please advise. A local County using it's own resources makes a great deal of sense to me. A State using it's resources makes sense to me, as it's citizens have some sort of say in the process.

The Federal government has nothing to do with protection of civilians from civilians at the local level, nor should they. Among the items set aside for a Federal government there is no Education provision, for that matter. These are State issues, local issues.


Columbine's guards were under instructions not to fire their weapons, to wait for SWAT.
Those rules of engagement have been changed, found deadly faulty, in studies of that shooing, which happened in the middle of the Joe Biden 1994 to 2004 useless AWB, btw.


Columbine, co had an armed guard. Very effective.
I maintain that you will NOT have effective guards. Most will not be combat ready. Most will endanger the people they are supposed to be guarding if they engage a shooter. Most won't be able to hit a target with their handgun, reliably, more than 50% of the time. Lots of rounds fired, not many hits on the intended target.

Look at the records of police firefights. Hundreds of rounds fired, and more civilian casualties. The intended targets aren't hit. This is the reason why you don't want rent-a-cops guarding schools. You also don't necessarily want real cops engaging in firefights in a school for the same reason. Most police aren't good shots, they are barely acceptable shots.

Some people are like the 'slinky'. Not really good for much,
but they bring a smile to your face as they fall down stairs.


Offline Grm

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Reply #124 on: January 01, 2013, 05:56:27 PM
I'm not sure armed guards in kindergartens and schools would be enough to protect small children from armed interlopers, it seems to me that further measures would be required to be sure.

a. The whole site should be surrounded by 8ft fences topped with razor wire (preferably electrified.)               
b. All entrances through controlled gates with at least two .50 machine gun armed watch towers.
c. All school buildings to be rebuilt with reinforced concrete with vision slits(windows could be an access point.)

Of course this might not prevent armed teachers and guards going off their rockers and mowing down the kids anyway, but nothing is full proof.



Offline horny guy

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Reply #125 on: January 01, 2013, 06:16:11 PM
i detect a very slight bit of sarcasm GRM..  :D



Janus

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Reply #126 on: January 01, 2013, 06:26:04 PM
I'm not sure armed guards in kindergartens and schools would be enough to protect small children from armed interlopers, it seems to me that further measures would be required to be sure.

a. The whole site should be surrounded by 8ft fences topped with razor wire (preferably electrified.)               
b. All entrances through controlled gates with at least two .50 machine gun armed watch towers.
c. All school buildings to be rebuilt with reinforced concrete with vision slits(windows could be an access point.)

Of course this might not prevent armed teachers and guards going off their rockers and mowing down the kids anyway, but nothing is full proof.


Jesus, Christ.........Your over exaggerated reply lends no voice. Obviously this is a subject that will never be won fully by either side of the fence. So I suppose sarcasm is the only thing that's left in the form of any type of discussion. Seems anyone who is left to comment is just going to be repeating themselves. Again and again and again.....etc.

Janus



Offline Grm

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Reply #127 on: January 01, 2013, 06:40:28 PM
Once every 5 year old has armed protection it is only a natural  progression to measures similar to those I outlined. Janus if you support the lunatic idea that every schoolchild needs armed protection then nothing is exaggerated, except your concept of innocent childhood.



Offline staci

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Reply #128 on: January 01, 2013, 07:28:27 PM
In re: to the crazies, a lady in Dallas purchased a handgun in a gun shop in about 20 minutes, went to her Lexus, got in, and shot herself. Dead. Pills would have worked.

one of the originals


Offline joan1984

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Reply #129 on: January 01, 2013, 07:30:13 PM
Costs a fortune to clean up that Lexus... geez...

In re: to the crazies, a lady in Dallas purchased a handgun in a gun shop in about 20 minutes, went to her Lexus, got in, and shot herself. Dead. Pills would have worked.

Some people are like the 'slinky'. Not really good for much,
but they bring a smile to your face as they fall down stairs.


Offline Katiebee

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Reply #130 on: January 02, 2013, 01:49:09 AM

Ask any respectable law enforcement officer and they will tell you drawing, much less firing their weapon is a last resort, and not something to be proud of.
precisely. They are not trained to engage in firefights.

Which is the entire purpose of having armed guards at a school, to SHOOT a probable shooter.

There are three kinds of people in the world. Those who can count, and those who can't.


Offline Katiebee

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Reply #131 on: January 02, 2013, 01:51:55 AM
The idea is deterrence, not a gunfight, when making public that those in a building may be or are armed. To stop the incident, or shorten the incident. If you have another way to create deterrence, and to stop or shorten an incident, please advise. A local County using it's own resources makes a great deal of sense to me. A State using it's resources makes sense to me, as it's citizens have some sort of say in the process.

The Federal government has nothing to do with protection of civilians from civilians at the local level, nor should they. Among the items set aside for a Federal government there is no Education provision, for that matter. These are State issues, local issues.


What you fail to understand is that the people perpetrating these actions have the same mind set as a suicide bomber. Deterrence is irrealavent to their actions.

There are three kinds of people in the world. Those who can count, and those who can't.


Offline Lois

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Reply #132 on: January 02, 2013, 03:09:23 AM

What you fail to understand is that the people perpetrating these actions have the same mind set as a suicide bomber. Deterrence is irreverent to their actions.

So true!  And that is why the death penalty is not much of a deterrence either. These guys usually kill themselves once they realize they are about to be taken.



Janus

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Reply #133 on: January 02, 2013, 06:12:30 AM
So tell me GRM. Would we even be having this conversation if these kids DID have a protector who foiled this travesty? Probably not. Would you be grateful? I would. That's for damn sure.....So if we can protect the kids, even one of them, from this ever happening again, I say we take those measures. Why wait for all of this legislation when we can act immediately and at least offer some form of comfort?

Janus



Offline Lois

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Reply #134 on: January 04, 2013, 03:39:42 AM
If the NRA is volunteering to pay for all this armed security, I say go for it.



Offline MissBarbara

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Reply #135 on: January 04, 2013, 03:55:05 PM
So tell me GRM. Would we even be having this conversation if these kids DID have a protector who foiled this travesty? Probably not. Would you be grateful? I would. That's for damn sure.....So if we can protect the kids, even one of them, from this ever happening again, I say we take those measures. Why wait for all of this legislation when we can act immediately and at least offer some form of comfort?

Janus


You make a very fair point here, Janus. It's a purely hypothetical situation, but I suppose that if there had been an armed security guard present at that school on that morning, perhaps not a single child would have been mirdered.

The problem is that this is a band-aid fix to a much deeper and much more profound problem. It's parallels the way conservatives' respond to crime by demanding that we hire more cops and build more prisons, while ignoring an attempt to search for the root causes of crime -- and to eliminate it at its root. Sure, more cops and more prisons will get more "bad guys" off the streets, but the root problem will still persist.

Similarly, if this is the sole response to this latest in a tragic and seemingly unending series of mass shootings -- and the NRA certainly seems to believe it should be -- it ignores the much deeper societal problem: the need to understand WHY these events are occurring, and continue to occur, at such an alarming rate. And, perhaps most important in this context, the role that the ready availability of both firearms and ammunition contributes to this problem.








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Offline MissBarbara

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Reply #137 on: January 04, 2013, 04:24:32 PM
I would add that those who say this is a mental health issue only need to be willing to at least consider that there are several contributing factors, mental health care probably being the primary one.


I agree completely.

Saying the problem is solely the result of the availability of firearms is both naive and wrong-headed. And so is saying the problem is solely the result of a "mental health crisis" in this country. Both are factors, but they are only factors -- and there are several other factors as well.

As someone else pointed out here (somewhere), the problem with the "gun control debate" is that it isn't a debate at all. It's two sides, each monolithically stating their case and their beliefs, while ignoring or angrily dismissing points made by the other side, with neither side seeking compromise or mutual understanding.

And THAT is a very American thing....





 




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Janus

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Reply #138 on: January 05, 2013, 06:05:56 PM
THIS IS JUST AN ARTICLE I COPIED AND PASTED. I thought it would shed light on my stance about gun control. I just don't trust the Government.

I know there is a History Buff around here somewhere, so maybe it can be researched....?



So, Feinstein wants to take yet another step towards producing a cowered, helpless populace by taking away our “evil” black rifles. Well, the expired 1993 ban did not reduce crime, largely because these expensive rifles are rarely used in crimes. David Kopel has a great page of resources on the subject.

Further, AWR Hawkins wrote a great piece on weapons used in crimes based on FBI statistics. Looking at both 2005-2009 and 2011 crime data, more people are murdered with hammers/clubs or hands/feet than by rifles of all types. In 2011, only 323 folks were murdered with rifles of all types, of which modern sporting rifles are a tiny percentage (around 1%), while 496 were killed with blunt objects and a whopping 726 by hands/feet.

If that’s not enough, 1694 were murdered with sharp implements, statistically mostly kitchen knives. So, we’d save way more lives by banning hammers, clubs, hands, feet, and kitchen knives than modern sporting rifles. Of course, British doctors want to do exactly that – ban kitchen knives. As we all know by now, since banning most firearms, the UK has become the most violent country in Europe.

The problem is that most Americans never learned basic logic or risk assessment. We act on our emotions rather than our brains, and are horribly susceptible to emotional lies from the progressive left. 20 dead children in Newtown is certainly a tragedy, but what about the 25 children killed by our government at Waco? Governments collectively murdered 262 million of their own citizens in the 20th century. Again, that’s why the 2nd Amendment applies even more so today than at our founding. Yet now, a piece of hardware used in less than 0.2% of all violent crimes in the U.S. but critical to our future freedom will be banned as part of an overall agenda to leave Americans helpless to resist the progressives’ leftist agenda. In the whole history of the world, that has never turned out well.

I’ve quoted our Founding Fathers on the 2nd Amendment, but they would be the first to say that they merely learned from history. They weren’t the only ones. Stanislav Mishin offer his perspective from Russia in his article Americans never give up your guns in none other than Pravda – the official Russian paper. He tells how, just like Obama and Feinstein here in our day, the communists used lies to disarm the people:

Moscow fell, for example, not from a lack of weapons to defend it, but from the lieing guile of the Reds. Ten thousand Reds took Moscow and were opposed only by some few hundreds of officer cadets and their instructors. Even then the battle was fierce and losses high. However, in the city alone, at that time, lived over 30,000 military officers (both active and retired), all with their own issued weapons and ammunition, plus tens of thousands of other citizens who were armed. The Soviets promised to leave them all alone if they did not intervene. They did not and for that were asked afterwards to come register themselves and their weapons: where they were promptly shot.

The post-disarming followed the inevitable historical pattern:

Of course being savages, murderers and liars does not mean being stupid and the Reds learned from their Civil War experience. One of the first things they did was to disarm the population. From that point, mass repression, mass arrests, mass deportations, mass murder, mass starvation were all a safe game for the powers that were. The worst they had to fear was a pitchfork in the guts or a knife in the back or the occasional hunting rifle. Not much for soldiers.

Amazing that Russians today understand what Obama, Biden, Feinstien, Bloomberg, et al, don’t about the root of freedom. On the other hand, maybe they do. This has nothing to do with children, but everything to do with power.

Wade Burleson wrote an interesting piece, The Need to Know Nuremberg: Hobby Lobby, Oliver Stone and the Orwellian United States Government. While some may think that Burleson is reading too much into the current erosion of our civil rights, the Germans thought the same thing in 1934, the Russians in 1917, the Chinese in 1949, and on and on. The Founders gave us the 2nd Amendment to ensure these things would never happen here, because they knew we could fall into tyranny within a generation or two. Again, look to Waco, Ruby Ridge, etc. Once the 2nd Amendment goes, the rest will fall shortly behind it, just as in Animal Farm, Orwell’s metaphoric comment on the Russian Revolution.

For instance, nutcase David Kaul wants to torture Mitch McConnell and John Boehner, declare the NRA with over 2 million members a terrorist organization, and murder gun owners who don’t comply with Kaul’s tyranny. None other than the Des Moines Tribune printed his sick manifesto. Yet although Kaul clearly and publicly threatened specific government leaders and law-abiding gun owners, I’ll bet that he never sees a day in jail. Imagine if you or I did that.

We already have Feinstein on record as wanting to totally disarming the little people:


Meanwhile, she and other anti-liberty politicians either carry guns themselves or hire bodyguards with guns. It’s only the little people like you and me that cannot be trusted with firearms. And I thought that America got rid of the kings and queens a couple of hundred years ago. Apparently not.

The same is true in Hollywood. A bunch of Hollywood morons who make their money off of incredibly violent movies made a video in favor of gun control. Talk about the height of hypocrisy! Fortunately, others used that video and interspersed it with violent scenes from their movies. I don’t link to it because of the language on the page, but Greg Gutfeld did a great job of putting the situation into perspective.

So, use your head. Look at history. Evaluate the real risks involved, not the emotional garbage. Rather than outlaw hammers, clubs, hands, feet, and kitchen knives, let’s deal with the evil psychopaths while providing every American, in and out of school, the ability to put down rabid dogs on the spot.



Janus

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Reply #139 on: January 07, 2013, 06:40:13 AM

PUBLISHED: 10:50 EST, 6 January 2013 | UPDATED: 10:59 EST, 6 January 2013


Unidentified woman fired all six rounds, missing only once

A would-be burglar was looking to cash in, but instead found himself in a world of pain when a Georgia mother, who refused to be victimized, shot him multiple times in the face and neck. Suspect Paul Ali Slater was found bleeding heavily in nearby driveway after crashing his car


The  woman, who was not identified, was in the home with her 9-year-old twins on Friday afternoon, when someone began ringing the doorbell. Thinking it was just a door-to-door salesperson, she didn't answer.

But after the ringing persisted, the person began prying the door open with a crowbar.
She quickly retreated to an attic crawlspace with the children, but not before she also picked up her handgun.

The burglar,did a room-by-room search of the home, and when he reached the attic, she was ready.The perpetrator opens that door. Of course, at that time he’s staring at her, her two children and a .38 revolver.' She reportedly fired all six rounds, missing only once. The other shots hit Slater about the face and neck.

Busted: The suspect was identified as Paul Ali Slater - who has a long rap sheet and was recently released from prison

Sheriff Chapman told the Atlanta Journal-Constitution: 'The guy’s face down, crying. The woman told him to stay down or she’d shoot again.'Slater did eventually get up and managed to return to his vehicle that was parked outside the home, but his injuries left him unable to drive, and it wasn't long before he crashed into a wooded area. He was found by sheriff's deputies, bleeding heavily in a driveway on the block.

He was pleading with his deputies, saying: 'I'm dying. Help me.

'He was carted off to Gwinnet Medical Center for treatment of the gunshot wounds, and he is expected to survive. Slater has a long criminal history and was released from prison in August.

The woman's husband, Donnie Herman, is just glad his wife and kids are safe.
Mr Herman told WSBTV: 'My wife is a hero. She protected her kids. She did what she was supposed to do as a responsible, prepared gun owner.'

'NOUGH FUCKING SAID

Janus