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Capital Punishment: Isn't it time to stop state sponsored murder?

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Offline thetaxmancometh

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Reply #80 on: June 02, 2015, 02:15:36 PM
"Moral relativists are staunchly uncertain, adamantly indecisive, self-righteously impotent and defiantly irrelevant."
-- Rick Gaber



Offline MissBarbara

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Reply #81 on: June 02, 2015, 04:06:16 PM

I don't think I'm confusing Morality and Justice.


I actually think you both are. Justice is, by definition, a product of morality and morality is subjective, as evidenced by the wildly different definitions of right and wrong people have.


It depends on what definition of Justice you are using.

And what definition of Morality you are using.

Justice statutes are, by definition, subjective, since they are dependent upon the time, place, culture, politics, etc. of a given people, group, or political organization. And, by that definition, Morality, too, is subjective, if you believe that justice statutes reflect Morality, and Morality is also the reflection of the moral views of a given people, group, or political organization.

If there is no objectivity to Justice, or Morality, then what is Legal, Just, Moral, Ethical, Equitable, etc. approaches meaninglessness.






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Offline MissBarbara

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Reply #82 on: June 02, 2015, 04:43:47 PM

Well if you are asking about "should you kill someone if they killed your family?", then you are asking a hypothetical that deals with emotion, not reason. Mine is different from that.


It's not my hypothetical, it's an example I dismiss out of hand. Besides, emotional or not, it still reflects the same subjectivity as your example.



Why do you think that it should matter what other nation's believe? If your position is based on reasoned logical chains, as I personally strive for, then it doesn't matter if people disagree with you. Europe, for example, has a very different culture then America and they should view things differently then us in quite a few matters.


I'll grant that your reasoning, in context, is certainly tenable, or at least consistent.

And if your philosophical outlook is "This is what I believe, and I don't care what anyone else believes," then yes, "it doesn't matter if people disagree with you."

I could make a compelling argument that the "culture" of Europe bears many striking parallels with American culture. And not just Europe, but other industrialized nations as well.

Over and above that, if one is looking to determine what's right, what's just, or what's best for a given people or society, it behooves one to look around and study what others have done, and discern both their reasons for doing so, and the consequences of their doing so.

I know this has been discussed exhaustively in another thread here, but it's worthwhile to ask the question: What problem does capital punishment solve?

It doesn't keep convicted murderers out of public circulation any more effectively than life imprisonment without parole. The existence of capital punishment doesn't serve as a deterrent to committing murder (among the 10 U.S. states that have the highest murder rates per capita, 8 of the 10 also have the death penalty; and one of the two that does not only abolished it last year). And the remaining principal argument in favor of capital punishment -- it provides "closure" to the family and friends of the victim (and I absolutely loathe the word, and concept, "closure") -- has nothing to do with justice, and everything to do with revenge or payback, hardly a concept on which to base either legality or morality.






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Offline thetaxmancometh

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Reply #83 on: June 02, 2015, 05:19:53 PM
Feel free to choose not to answer the hypothetical, it is just supposed to make you think and I assume you didn't like your conclusion :p At a certain point I think the plurality of us agree that death is appropriate as a penalty, the problem is usually in drawing in the line.

I have spent years in Europe, though all of it was north of Spain (mostly in Ireland and Switzerland) and I certainly agree that most of European culture is similar to American culture... they just tend to be more left socially, politically, and certainly economically.

That being said, morality isn't based on what others think is ok but what is right. For most of human history things like slavery, child brides, rape during war, and torture were acceptable. If you are going to look at others to help construct your moral constraints, why not include historical moral constraints as well? Why not use the middle eastern and northern African worlds where what I listed about is still openly practiced? When slavery was common place in America, European territories, African, and SE Asia.... was it right?

"What problem does capital punishment solve?"

Interesting question, but an irrelevant one to me. Capital punishment is a punishment, not a social program. I suppose you could say it solves some of the social crime problems and some of the jail crime problems in that it removes a person from the population, but ultimately for a punishment to be effective as a deterrent it must sure, swift, and harsh. The death penalty is harsh, but it is neither sure nor swift so it is not a criminal deterrent. It does prevent recidivism I suppose :p


Obviously my comments are not aimed at you, directly, they are just questions for people to consider. I strongly believe that you will almost never convince the people (person) you are argueing with to change their opinion but you might be able to influence any bystanders :)



Offline MissBarbara

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Reply #84 on: June 02, 2015, 06:04:04 PM

Feel free to choose not to answer the hypothetical, it is just supposed to make you think and I assume you didn't like your conclusion :p At a certain point I think the plurality of us agree that death is appropriate as a penalty, the problem is usually in drawing in the line.


If you're chiding me for ducking the question, I assumed my answer was implicit. But to be explicit, I do not think that hypothetical person should be executed. My opposition to the enforcement of the death penalty is absolute, irrespective of the heinousness of the crime committed. I do not, for example, believe that Timothy McVeigh should have been executed, nor do I believe that Dzhokhar Tsarnaev should be executed.



I have spent years in Europe, though all of it was north of Spain (mostly in Ireland and Switzerland) and I certainly agree that most of European culture is similar to American culture... they just tend to be more left socially, politically, and certainly economically.


In other words, you agree with me. Thanks for that!  ;)



That being said, morality isn't based on what others think is ok but what is right. For most of human history things like slavery, child brides, rape during war, and torture were acceptable. If you are going to look at others to help construct your moral constraints, why not include historical moral constraints as well? Why not use the middle eastern and northern African worlds where what I listed about is still openly practiced? When slavery was common place in America, European territories, African, and SE Asia.... was it right?


Who determines "what is right"? Do you believe there is an objective "right" and "wrong" -- and in a non-religious sense?

That, I think, is the crux of this discussion (and it speaks to Farmer Miles's point and my response to him, above).

I believe there is an objective (and not necessarily religious) "right" and "wrong," an objective Justice, and that societies have to evolve to the point where their legal systems reflect that objectivity. Yes, as I mentioned above, legal systems, as human constructs, will be per se subjective. But that fact should not deter seeking to keep following the continuum toward as perfect a legal system as possible.

The examples you provide here tend to support my claim. The fact that things you mention were once considered "acceptable" and now are not speaks to the continuum I just described. And the fact that "the middle eastern and northern African worlds where what I listed about is still openly practiced" is roundly condemned speaks to that as well.



Obviously my comments are not aimed at you, directly, they are just questions for people to consider. I strongly believe that you will almost never convince the people (person) you are argueing with to change their opinion but you might be able to influence any bystanders :)


Finally! I now have the chance to utterly and completely disagree with you!

"I strongly believe that you will almost never convince the people (person) you are arguing with to change their opinion" is an Interweb truism that is simply not true.

Not that one example proves anything, but I have several times changed my mind, changed my opinion, or at the very least thoughtfully reconsidered my stance based on things I have read online, including right here on KB. And those who chose to enter online discussions like this one with the intention of thinking, considering, and learning, not infrequently do so as well. "Open mindedness," ironically, is widely touted, but very rarely practiced. If nothing else, my mind is at least open enough to read and think about what you are saying here -- and what others have said elsewhere on the Board -- and intelligently consider both your positions and my own. It doesn't mean I'll change my mind -- though that has certainly happened -- but I'll at least consider and evaluate.

And that, to mind, is the best thing this Board has to offer.

Well, that, and hot pictures of lesbians fucking...








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Offline thetaxmancometh

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Reply #85 on: June 02, 2015, 06:14:19 PM
Well, we will agree to disagree. I think I have stated position well and I understand your position as well. Very few people admit when they are wrong, very few people change their minds due to arguments... maybe you are the exception :p I try to admit when I am wrong, I apologize a lot... but only if someone can demonstrate that I 'am' wrong :) I have been part of an international political/philosophical debating board for over a decade and we demand that any time anyone says something that they must be able and willing to support it. I have had my mind changed on several issues, but most people never move. Then again, most people never really think.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 06:16:24 PM by thetaxmancometh »



Offline MissBarbara

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Reply #86 on: June 02, 2015, 06:35:49 PM

Well, we will agree to disagree. I think I have stated position well and I understand your position as well. Very few people admit when they are wrong, very few people change their minds due to arguments... maybe you are the exception :p I try to admit when I am wrong, I apologize a lot... but only if someone can demonstrate that I 'am' wrong :) I have been part of an international political/philosophical debating board for over a decade and we demand that any time anyone says something that they must be able and willing to support it. I have had my mind changed on several issues, but most people never move. Then again, most people never really think.


I don't think you're wrong.

And you have stated your position well -- very well.





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Offline thetaxmancometh

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Reply #87 on: June 02, 2015, 07:10:55 PM
You too, was a good discussion, ty.



DrRick947

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Reply #88 on: June 02, 2015, 11:14:00 PM
Lets say a man plans out and kidnaps 10 children. He rapes, tortures, mutilates and murders all of them for the sole purpose of his enjoyment. Let us further assume that this is all caught on camera, that the man confesses, and that the man is found to be in full mental facilties (I.E. he knew his actions were wrong and had the ability to not act on them). Would it be more just to kill him or keep him in prison? What if he is severely claustrophobic and the very prison cell would be a constant torture?

May I offer a comment on this?

Something like this happened in Connecticut.  Between 1981 and 1984, Michael Ross raped and murdered eight girls between the ages of 14 and 25.  He confessed and was sentenced to death in 1987.  Ross was a bright guy (Cornell graduate) and knew right from wrong.  He also was a sexual sadist.

Ross was on death row for 18 years.  But after 17 years of that routine, he’d had enough.  He ordered his attorneys to withdraw all appeals and sue for an execution date.  At age 44, there was no end in sight.  He knew he would die in that cell, so why not just get it over with?

Ross’s lawsuit posed a Catch-22 for the justice system.  The State had sentenced Ross to death.  But the State cannot execute an insane person.  And a person would have to be insane to argue in favor of his own death.  What’s more, if the State and Ross now agree that Ross should die, there is no longer an adversarial proceeding.

A new trial got underway with the State now arguing that Ross was insane and should not be executed while Ross argued that he was indeed sane and should be executed at once, in accordance with the 1987 sentence. 

Things got complicated.  At one point, a federal judge intervened to opine that Ross’s sexual sadism should have been considered a mitigating factor that would have made him ineligible for the death penalty.  But, in the end, Ross was judged to be sane and he was dispatched by lethal injection in May 2005.

The question arises, would it be more just to kill him or keep him in prison?

My view is that it would have been more just to sentence him to life without parole and to keep him in prison until he died a natural death.  The ‘without parole’ condition would ensure he is housed in maximum-security for the rest of his life, without the possibility eventual of step-down to a dorm-like setting.

Ross was not insane; he just didn’t feel like living on death row any longer.  He knew death was to only way he would ever leave prison so why not just cut to the chase? 

But living under death row conditions IS the punishment for what he did.  Being dead is not a punishment.

The Court should not have allowed Ross to truncate his punishment in this manner.

~Rick



Offline Elizabeth

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Reply #89 on: June 02, 2015, 11:28:04 PM
Rick....

That almost sounds like "Let The Punishment Fit The Crime".
Also sounds like Ross was trying to beat the system from within the inside.

Love,
Liz



Offline thetaxmancometh

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Reply #90 on: June 03, 2015, 04:46:51 AM
Well, I think sane people can want to die and I am not a huge fan of letting prisoners choose their own sentence



DrRick947

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Reply #91 on: June 03, 2015, 11:38:19 AM
Rick....

That almost sounds like "Let The Punishment Fit The Crime".
Also sounds like Ross was trying to beat the system from within the inside.

Love,
Liz


That’s exactly what happened, Liz … he beat the system from the inside and, in effect, chose his own sentence.

In fact, on the day Ross was executed, the psychiatrist for the state – that was the shrink who argued that Ross was not mentally competent to be executed – received a letter from Ross.  The letter said, “Check, and mate. You never had a chance.”  Ross knew exactly what he was doing and so did everybody else.

Since Ross, Connecticut has gotten rid of the death penalty.  Now, if somebody gets life without parole he goes to a maximum security prison and stays there until he dies a natural death.