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same sex marriage revisited

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Offline anvil

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on: May 08, 2015, 01:09:59 AM
I found the following opinion piece very interesting. It is nice to see an article that addresses issues that have bothered me, and then some.

Before you tear me to shreds, let me explain

When this issue of same sex marriage came into my existence, it seemed the issues were not religious but civil matters such as work insurance not covering your significant other etc.

Then it seemed to become a battle against religion.

My thoughts were much the same as this article: marriage has been the domain of religions around the world and for a "long piece of time".

Thus arose a semantics battle par excellant.

Why doesn't this fall under the heading of " Civil Union"? These  marriages are in fact done in the civil sphere, not within most churches.

The chosen pathway has forced the issue of church and state to clash when it did not need to be. Now the state is in fact forcing people to for go  their beliefs in order to stay in business.

This could not have happened if it were simply called,,, "Civil Union"

it doesn't mean it would not have caused civil problems, but it would have kept church vs state out of these social changes.

In the US, I do not believe the roll of government should be to force "non religion" upon anyone as well as it shouldn't force "religion" on us in any way.

With time, public acceptance will happen and the church will follow.

Hope you will read the article.

Forcing change by a panel of judges instead of a vote by "we the people" is an interesting take on the situation.


http://www.eagleforum.org/publications/column/justice-kennedy-learns-a-new-word.html


Quote
Justice Kennedy Learns a New Word

by Phyllis SchlaflyMay 6, 2015
Supreme Court Justice Anthony M. Kennedy learned and used a new word during the Supreme Court’s oral argument about Marriage. He said, “The word that keeps coming back to me in this case is millennia.”

He wasn’t talking about the new voting bloc of young people called the millennials. He was referring to the thousands of years in which the public has honored marriage as the union of a man and a woman.

“And suddenly,” as Justice Stephen F. Breyer said, “you want nine people outside the ballot box” to change that by judicial fiat. That sounds like somebody is seeking government by judicial supremacists instead of by “We the people” (as our Constitution says).

The verdict of history that extends even farther back than the U.S. Constitution is why Kennedy said “the word that keeps coming back to me in this case is millennia.” Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. added, “Every definition that I looked up, prior to about a dozen years ago, defined marriage as unity between a man and a woman as husband and wife.”

It was not only the longevity of the husband-wife definition of marriage that troubled the Justices, but also its universality. Justice Samuel A. Alito Jr. pointed out that, “until the end of the 20th century, there never was a nation or a culture that recognized marriage between two people of the same sex.”

Alito noted that in ancient Greece, for example, only opposite-sex couples could be married even though same-sex relationships were openly tolerated. That proves the definition of marriage is not borne of prejudice or “animus” against homosexuals.

The same is true of the non-Western societies of Asia, Africa, and the Middle East. Incidentally, have you noticed that only Christian small business people have been harassed and sued for refusing to participate in same-sex marriages, even though our fast-growing immigrant populations of Muslims, Hindus, and other faiths are also opposed to that concept?

The use of same-sex marriage to attack Christian businesses, but not businesses run by members of other religions, demonstrates what is really driving the demand for a new constitutional right to same-sex marriage. It is simply the latest attempt to destroy Christian institutions and discredit Christian beliefs.

The same-sex-marriage advocates like to say that as many as 37 states have already made same-sex marriage legal, and they use the argument of inevitability to pressure the rest of us to go along. The truth is that only eleven of the fifty states authorized same-sex marriage by the legislative process, and only three of those were ratified by a vote of the people; the others were dictated by judges, who are now being asked to impose the same rule on the U.S. Territories of Guam and Puerto Rico.

The best precedent for what the Supreme Court should do about gay marriage is the assisted suicide case of 1997 known as Washington v. Glucksberg. At a time when assisted suicide was illegal in every state, a lawsuit asked the Supreme Court to rule that suicide with a doctor’s assistance is a form of individual liberty protected by the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution.

Although the Justices were as deeply divided on social issues then as they are today, the Court unanimously declined the invitation to create a new constitutional right. Then-Chief Justice Rehnquist wrote in his majority opinion that judges should limit their rulings to “fundamental rights and liberties which are, objectively, deeply rooted in this Nation’s history and tradition” – which assisted suicide, like same-sex marriage, clearly is not.

Two years ago, when the Supreme Court heard California’s Proposition 8 case, Justice Scalia famously asked gay marriage attorney Ted Olson, “When did it become unconstitutional to exclude homosexual couples from marriage? 1791? 1868 when the 14th Amendment was adopted?” After much hemming and hawing Olson finally admitted, “I can’t answer that question.”

Echoing the gay advocates, Obama’s Solicitor General Donald Verrilli told the Supreme Court that “it is simply untenable . . . to wait until the majority decides that it is ready” for same-sex marriage. In other words, goodbye to government “of the people and by the people” and welcome to government by unelected judges.

Asking the Court to reject the will of the American people and impose a new rule that is not “objectively, deeply rooted in this Nation’s history and tradition” means, as Rehnquist warned in 1997, that our beloved Constitution would be “subtly transformed into the policy preferences of the members of this Court.”


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Offline Katiebee

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Reply #1 on: May 08, 2015, 02:20:36 AM
 Equal protection under law.  That is the core  issue. Because law allows for inheritance as well as other rights and privileges marriage is a secular institution controlled by the secular government.  It does not prohibit churches from saying they will not perform a religious ceremony for the marriage, it only says that secular businesses and the government must treat all people equally under the law.  Alito has his head up his ass. He is ignoring that Mary is not totally and solely a religious institution, it is an institution that in shores transfer of wealth and property, And all the rights inherent in a contract between two people.

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Offline MissBarbara

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Reply #2 on: May 08, 2015, 02:27:59 AM
Thanks for posting this. It's a thought-provoking article, and I appreciated your adding your thoughts to it.

I'll admit that when I saw the source was a right-wing web site, and that Phyllis Schlafly was the author, I almost skipped it.

The basic -- and obvious -- response to her points is this: Just because something has been done for 1,000 years, does it mean it must be done that way forever after? To take the most obvious example, slavery existed for thousands of years, and was legally codified, including here in the U.S. Would those who think the "definition" of marriage should not be changed because it has existed for 1,000 years also think that slavery should not have been outlawed because it, too, had existed for 1,000 years?

From a legal point of view, there is no conflict between Church and State regarding this issue. Yes, most religions are against redefining "marriage," but, as with other parallel issues, that should not, and does not, affect its political legality, nor should it. In the U.S., all marriages are civil unions. The religious ceremony that may, or may not, attend it, is precisely that, ceremonial. The couple is married by the state, and not the religious institution.

She's dead wrong when she asserts, "The use of same-sex marriage to attack Christian businesses, but not businesses run by members of other religions, demonstrates what is really driving the demand for a new constitutional right to same-sex marriage. It is simply the latest attempt to destroy Christian institutions and discredit Christian beliefs." The businesses are not being "attacked" at all. They're being challenged because they are discriminating, and thus, violating the law. The same applies to any business that discriminates against anyone for any reason.

(Nor, for that matter, are "they" demanding "a new constitutional right." Marriage is no where defined in the Constitution, nor should it be. Add to that, private businesses are not "Christian institutions.")

She's right that the roll of states accepting marriage equality is growing almost monthly. And she's also right, there does seem an air of inevitability to the process, to the point where, despite whatever the Supreme Court might rule, in a a short amount of time, marriage equality will be on the books in the overwhelming majority of U.S. states (but not, of course, Texas).

Finally, she seems flat-out ignorant on how the political and legislative process works in this country. Laws or not established or abrogated by "a vote of the people," nor have they ever. This isn't how our political process works. Laws are voted on by legislators elected by the people, and laws are examined by justices, and not the people. There has never been a national referendum in this country on anything, never once. The fact that our government is, as she cites, "of the people and by the people" does not mean laws are passed only with a national majority. Anyone who took a 6th grade civics class knows that.






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Offline phtlc

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Reply #3 on: May 08, 2015, 02:31:10 AM
I don't see how it hurts anyone or the church to just call it marriage.

While you're waiting in vain for that apology, why don't you make yourself useful by getting on your knees and opening your mouth


Offline Lois

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Reply #4 on: May 10, 2015, 12:22:01 AM



Offline anvil

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Reply #5 on: May 17, 2015, 06:32:01 PM
Sorry for not answering sooner. I'm at the tail end of moving a blacksmith shop(mine), a lifestyle, and building a student an family in building a shop for them. Trust me, the details behind that is worth a beer in any bar in the world!

MissB, thanks, I think you see what I'm getting at. I certainly agree with all you said.

What brought this to my mind is one of two bylines that I picked up here and are just Lil gems!

The first:

"Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!"

When " married" by a judge, I'm pretty sure its called "civil union". To use this term just may have been a less threatenibg step towards a win/win situation and thus -perhaps- caused easier acceptance. Just my thoughts.

The second one liner is, thank you very much Katybee,is

"There are three kinds of people in the world. Those who can count, and those who can't."

I get way more blank stares and "huh?" for a response then anything! Priceless!

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Offline Katiebee

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Reply #6 on: May 17, 2015, 06:45:51 PM
Oh, and my point has always been, legal marriages in the US have always been civil law based. Churches do NOT issue marriage licenses. Only the civil, secular government.

There are three kinds of people in the world. Those who can count, and those who can't.


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Reply #7 on: May 17, 2015, 09:16:19 PM
After watching this vid, I think that NOBODY in the USA should get married... Sorry Toe, I know it's your bread and butter...




Offline anvil

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Reply #8 on: May 18, 2015, 05:08:05 PM
Thanks for the video.

Change the name from family court to civil court and all applies there as well.

I'm sure that those involved with "family court" at every level are strong supporters of same sex marriage.

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