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A dilemma

anvil · 1230

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Offline anvil

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on: August 08, 2014, 04:05:32 PM


A dilemma. I must be missing the logic here somewhere.

It appears that if freedom of speech wins, freedom of speech loses, much less giving freedom of religion more clout to be in public places.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-cheerleaders-take-bible-banner-fight-to-state-supreme-court/


Atheist groups say a Texas high school
cheer team violated the separation of
church and state by using banners
inscribed with Bible scripture at its
games.
But the cheerleaders aren't giving up
without a fight, asking the state Supreme
Court to weigh in on a controversial two-
year-long battle, CBS News' Adriana Diaz
reports.
The team began printing scripture onto
its game banners in 2012, but the school
received a complaint, leading the
Freedom From Religion Foundation to
write a letter to the Kountze school
district.
"It's a religious proselytizing message,
and it's a school-sponsored message. It
violates the Establishment Clause," said
Elizabeth Cavel, a lawyer with the
foundation.
The school responded with a ban. Then,
members of the 2012 quad filed a lawsuit
against the district, saying their right to
free speech was being violated. They won
a temporary injunction in 2012, and a
2013 ruling said they could carry the
banners but never clarified if the
students' rights to free speech were being
violated.
While the students can carry the banners,
school officials have the right to censor
them.
On Wednesday, current and former
members of the squad filed a petition
with the Texas state Supreme Court,
asking that it recognize the girls' speech
as private, making any ban a violation of
the First Amendment.
If the courts rule in their favor, it would
make it difficult for groups like the
Freedom From Religion Foundation to
sue in the future.
The squad insists this is about free
speech, not freedom of religion.
"If it was a group that was wanting to
post not scriptures, but maybe phrases
from a different religion they should also
be allowed to have their speech," said
team cheerleader Ashton Lawrence.
The school district did not provide a
comment.
The Freedom From Religion Foundation
said it has no plans to retreat.
"Nothing has changed," Cavel said. "These
banners continue to be school-sponsored
speech, and they continue to violate the
Establishment Clause, so depending on
the outcome of this litigation, we'd
certainly be prepared to sue."
But for now, come football season, the
Kountze cheerleaders plan to cheer on
with enthusiasm and scripture.

Deus subrisum stultusi et ferrari


Bexy

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Reply #1 on: August 08, 2014, 04:19:40 PM
If the cheerleaders would be ok with me quoting from the Edda, I don't see a problem. In fact, paying tribute to Odin is more conducive to victory with his extensive experience in the battlefield. Jesus really didn't strike me as a competitive guy.  ;D




Offline Katiebee

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Reply #2 on: August 08, 2014, 04:26:15 PM
Anvil, the crux of the problem is that when they do that, as school cheerleaders they are using a state institution to promote their particular religion.

Want to see what would happen if there were Muslim cheerleaders attempting to put quotes from the Koran on banners?

Guess how many of these stalwarts in Christiantown would be foaming at the mouth about these "foreigners and their attempt to proselytize their awful, hateful religion backed by the school."

THIS is what is wrong with their attempt.

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Offline Katiebee

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Reply #3 on: August 08, 2014, 04:29:45 PM
"18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it."

Isaiah 1:18-20

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Bexy

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Reply #4 on: August 08, 2014, 04:34:12 PM
Katie, I agree and understand the problem with the Bible thumpers. I'm curious though what would happen if they encountered a team of Pagan cheerleaders? They can't exactly call them 'foreign'? Would they yell 'heretics'?



Offline Katiebee

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Reply #5 on: August 08, 2014, 05:19:03 PM
OMG. If they were Wiccan, or followed Celtic practices, or animistic, or even Native American religions, there would be a horrendous outcry against the idolaters pagans, etc. Social ostracism even threats against them.

Don't underestimate the smallness of these people.

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Bexy

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Reply #6 on: August 08, 2014, 06:35:55 PM
Wow, so it really is as bad as depicted in True Blood?

Oh, imagine, a football team crying out 'By Odin's beard, we will crush them!!' and the cheerleaders wearing T-shirts of Pan (okay, I know, he's a Greek god, but he's so cool).


« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 06:41:50 PM by Bexy »



Offline Athos_131

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Reply #7 on: August 08, 2014, 07:20:33 PM
Since all religions are going to get a banner, I insist this be next.


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Offline MissBarbara

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Reply #8 on: August 08, 2014, 07:28:04 PM

Anvil, the crux of the problem is that when they do that, as school cheerleaders they are using a state institution to promote their particular religion.



Yes, "particular religion" is the key element. And the solution is quite simple, since the Supreme Court has decidedly determined that the free speech elements of the First Amendment may be curtailed by public schools for legitimate reasons -- including, but not limited to, guaranteeing freedom of religious expression, which expression is curtailed when one, particular religion is emphasized over another (or none at all).

In other words, these high school cheerleaders, acting in the context of a public school activity, do not have the same free speech rights as another person would in a non-governmentally established setting, or in private, or, I suppose, simply standing on a street corner.





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Offline Katiebee

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Reply #9 on: August 08, 2014, 07:58:17 PM
Correct, MissB. They are acting as agents of the school.

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Offline MissBarbara

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Reply #10 on: August 08, 2014, 08:12:21 PM

Correct, MissB. They are acting as agents of the school.


The only way to understand the full scope of the First Amendment -- and both the Free Speech and Free Exercise of Religion clauses -- is to understand the reasons why these rights were enshrined in the first place.

When Jefferson famously wrote of a metaphorical "wall of separation between Church and State," he was not speaking of defending the government from religion, but rather, defending religion from the government. This becomes clear when you read the first five words of the Amendment: "Congress shall make no law..."

This decision (and I think it's safe to assume it will be upheld) -- along with the more famous Supreme Court decisions banning organized prayer in public schools -- are specifically intended to protect the students from the school, and thus the government. That's why there would be no violation for a student to wear a t-shirt saying, "Jesus Christ is My Lord and Savior," but there would be if the same words were printed on a sign at an official school activity.

But you already know these things...




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Offline anvil

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Reply #11 on: August 09, 2014, 02:59:53 AM
Katiebee and MissB, and Bexy, thanks, Ladies,you filled in the missing pieces. In fact the school should have chastised the cheerleader coach for letting this happen.

Deus subrisum stultusi et ferrari


Offline Gina Marie

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Reply #12 on: August 09, 2014, 03:37:48 AM



Offline anvil

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Reply #13 on: August 09, 2014, 04:15:07 AM
Jest shows to go,, everything's bigger in Texas,,, by Gawd

Deus subrisum stultusi et ferrari


Offline Lois

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Reply #14 on: August 09, 2014, 07:35:52 PM

So winning a football game makes one school favored by the lord over the school that lost?

 :emot_laughing:



Offline Katiebee

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Reply #15 on: August 10, 2014, 02:25:18 AM
Only the righteous and those truly in God's favor truly know.

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Offline anvil

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Reply #16 on: August 10, 2014, 05:18:11 PM
Its the original win/ win solution...God's always on the winning side.

Deus subrisum stultusi et ferrari


Offline watcher1

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Reply #17 on: August 10, 2014, 07:11:43 PM
Only the righteous and those truly in God's favor truly know.

Guess that leaves us out.... 8)

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Offline Katiebee

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Reply #18 on: August 10, 2014, 11:56:13 PM
No. You simply have to claim you're all of that.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 02:13:02 AM by Katiebee »

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Offline watcher1

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Reply #19 on: August 11, 2014, 01:14:48 AM
No thanks. 

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